On 5/25/2015 11:28 AM, Steven Schveighoffer via dmd-internals wrote:
> I feel like I need to respond to this. For the most part, I think the “bouncing the rubble” points are spot on. Reorganizing files can have benefits, and generally github is quite good at recognizing the move.

My experience with github is it is quite terrible at showing a reasonable diff when there's been whitespace and code motion changes.

>   
>
> But the logical fallacy of regressions being tied to refactorings (correlation does not imply causation) bothers me. Regressions aren’t exclusively caused by refactorings,

I agree they aren't caused exclusively by refactorings, and correlation is not causation. But I expect a refactoring to reduce the incidence of regressions, and this does not seem to be happening. Refactorings make changes hard to review, and refactorings are often attached to other pull requests which have resulted in regressions. The actual cause of the regression cannot of course be known until a fix is determined, but the refactoring is not helping with figuring out why a PR has produced a regression.

I am not immune to making such mistakes myself - https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/dmd/pull/4678 fixes a regression I introduced when doing a refactoring. Nobody should be taking this as a personal affront. It isn't. All of us can do better.

PR bug fixes need to be focused on the bug fix. Refactorings should be separate PRs and marked as refactorings and must strive to introduce no behavioral changes.


>  We all agree with your vision for the most part, but not everyone needs to exclusively work on your priorities for D to succeed.

Exclusivity is neither desirable nor necessary, and most of the good stuff has come based on an individual's initiative. But not enough work in the priorities is clearly a problem. If we do not work on these priorities, there won't be a D future for anyone. And as explained, I am of the opinion that many of the refactorings and renamings are negatively productive in that they impede progress. Look at all the postings arguing about name changes.


> Let’s have a beer in Utah and get our goals all aligned :) -Steve

Absolutely! And let's all keep in mind that email exchanges are a poor communications method when difficult things are talked about. Absent tone, body language, etc., this can unfortunately result in needless misunderstandings and hurt feelings. I can't enumerate all the times a heated email exchange evaporated in 5 minutes over a beer. Chuck says that there's a good watering hole nearby. This is a major purpose behind Dconf, and I'm looking forward to talking about this with y'all!
_______________________________________________
dmd-internals mailing list
dmd-internals@puremagic.com
http://lists.puremagic.com/mailman/listinfo/dmd-internals

I'm 100% with Walter on his point, though I agree there is a paucity of evidence of refactorings being actively hurtful.

But the point stands - there's too much low-impact work that clogs important resources, which get diverted into long debates about the inconsequential. That needs to improve, and I'd be hard pressed to understand how it ever applies to take offense upon a call to improving the quality of contributions.

Let's talk more during DConf.


Andrei
_______________________________________________
dmd-internals mailing list
dmd-internals@puremagic.com
http://lists.puremagic.com/mailman/listinfo/dmd-internals

Walter Bright via dmd-internals, el 25 de May a las 13:36 me escribiste:
> On 5/25/2015 11:28 AM, Steven Schveighoffer via dmd-internals wrote:
> >I feel like I need to respond to this. For the most part, I think the “bouncing the rubble” points are spot on. Reorganizing files can have benefits, and generally github is quite good at recognizing the move.
> 
> My experience with github is it is quite terrible at showing a reasonable diff when there's been whitespace and code motion changes.

For whitespace changes, just append ?w=1 to the URL, and it will omit any whitespace changes. It's very handy.

-- 
Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca)                     http://llucax.com.ar/
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Cuando el Mártir estaba siendo perseguido y aglutinado por los
citronetos, aquellos perversos que pretendian, en su maldad, piononizar
las enseñanzas de Peperino.
	-- Peperino Pómoro
_______________________________________________
dmd-internals mailing list
dmd-internals@puremagic.com
http://lists.puremagic.com/mailman/listinfo/dmd-internals

Thanks to you and Daniel for letting me know this. It really does help.

On 5/26/2015 1:49 AM, Leandro Lucarella wrote:
> For whitespace changes, just append ?w=1 to the URL, and it will omit
> any whitespace changes. It's very handy.
>

_______________________________________________
dmd-internals mailing list
dmd-internals@puremagic.com
http://lists.puremagic.com/mailman/listinfo/dmd-internals

On 05/25/2015 10:36 PM, Walter Bright via dmd-internals wrote:
> 
> 
> On 5/25/2015 11:28 AM, Steven Schveighoffer via dmd-internals wrote:
>> I feel like I need to respond to this. For the most part, I think the “bouncing the rubble” points are spot on. Reorganizing files can have benefits, and generally github is quite good at recognizing the move.
> 
> My experience with github is it is quite terrible at showing a reasonable diff when there's been whitespace and code motion changes.

There is a nice trick, append ?w=1 to the diff page and it will omit whitespace changes.

https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/phobos/pull/3431/files?w=1

On 05/26/2015 01:59 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu via dmd-internals wrote:
> I'm 100% with Walter on his point, though I agree there is a paucity of evidence of refactorings being actively hurtful.
> 
> But the point stands - there's too much low-impact work that clogs important resources, which get diverted into long debates about the inconsequential. That needs to improve, and I'd be hard pressed to understand how it ever applies to take offense upon a call to improving the quality of contributions.

One underlying problem is lack of dev planning.
Noone knows what's important and what isn't.
Just expecting people to deduce the same priorities as you from all the
info in the newsgroup can't work.

On 20 Jun 2015 11:50, "Martin Nowak via dmd-internals" < dmd-internals@puremagic.com> wrote:
>
> On 05/25/2015 10:36 PM, Walter Bright via dmd-internals wrote:
> >
> >
> > On 5/25/2015 11:28 AM, Steven Schveighoffer via dmd-internals wrote:
> >> I feel like I need to respond to this. For the most part, I think the “bouncing the rubble” points are spot on. Reorganizing files can have benefits, and generally github is quite good at recognizing the move.
> >
> > My experience with github is it is quite terrible at showing a reasonable diff when there's been whitespace and code motion changes.
>
> There is a nice trick, append ?w=1 to the diff page and it will omit whitespace changes.
>
> https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/phobos/pull/3431/files?w=1
>

And if that does not work, asking people to split up their commits into easy to review chunks helps too.

https://github.com/D-Programming-Language/dlang.org/pull/981

If it helps speed up the review / merge process...

On 6/20/15 2:53 AM, Martin Nowak via dmd-internals wrote:
> On 05/26/2015 01:59 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu via dmd-internals wrote:
>> I'm 100% with Walter on his point, though I agree there is a paucity of
>> evidence of refactorings being actively hurtful.
>>
>> But the point stands - there's too much low-impact work that clogs
>> important resources, which get diverted into long debates about the
>> inconsequential. That needs to improve, and I'd be hard pressed to
>> understand how it ever applies to take offense upon a call to improving
>> the quality of contributions.
>
> One underlying problem is lack of dev planning.
> Noone knows what's important and what isn't.
> Just expecting people to deduce the same priorities as you from all the
> info in the newsgroup can't work.

Does http://wiki.dlang.org/Vision/2015H1 help? By the way, we need to get cranking on H2. -- Andrei
_______________________________________________
dmd-internals mailing list
dmd-internals@puremagic.com
http://lists.puremagic.com/mailman/listinfo/dmd-internals

On 06/20/2015 05:06 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
> Does http://wiki.dlang.org/Vision/2015H1 help? By the way, we need to get cranking on H2. -- Andrei

It helps a little on the high level, but doesn't facilitate dev
cooperation on features. Sometimes people get stuck and abandon work b/c
of a tiny missing information or lack of attention.
Let's hope Trello and more regular planning work out.

Roger that. Still we do need to get to H2's vision. -- Andrei

On 7/9/15 9:16 AM, Martin Nowak via dmd-internals wrote:
> On 06/20/2015 05:06 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>> Does http://wiki.dlang.org/Vision/2015H1 help? By the way, we need to
>> get cranking on H2. -- Andrei
>
> It helps a little on the high level, but doesn't facilitate dev
> cooperation on features. Sometimes people get stuck and abandon work b/c
> of a tiny missing information or lack of attention.
> Let's hope Trello and more regular planning work out.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> dmd-internals mailing list
> dmd-internals@puremagic.com
> http://lists.puremagic.com/mailman/listinfo/dmd-internals
>
_______________________________________________
dmd-internals mailing list
dmd-internals@puremagic.com
http://lists.puremagic.com/mailman/listinfo/dmd-internals