On Thursday, 12 November 2020 at 22:11:33 UTC, Gregor Mückl wrote:
>
> A heads down working attitude is very commendable, but - watching from the sidelines, mind you - I get the impression that D could profit from some more aggressive outreach. That means not just talking to the existing community, but also more active advocacy. Reaching out to other communities and organizations, pointing out that D exists, listening to them to figure out their needs, pointing out what it is capable of doing for them etc... To be blunt: this part is sales, but different.
>
> It takes a certain kind of character to do this. Technically minded people often tend to dislike doing that, in my experience*. But let's be honest, we all like to listen once someone has started a pitch in a way that made us genuinely curious about some aspect of the product.
>
> I wonder now what would happen if the D Foundation could actually hire a person who can present such a pitch convincingly, especially to the corporate world.

Absolutely, D is like a garage project but garage projects don't really scale. The biggest Achilles heel of the D project is its management or lack of it. The maintainers are technically very skilled but they aren't really of the pure manager material. Small tech startups when they grow, the smart ones get a CEO when they reach certain point. Not only to relieve themselves from some work but also the friends that started the company might disagree and that's when the CEO steps in order to represent the interest of the company. I've seen companies that don't do that and they usually just dissolve because of some disagreements.

The D project could need a person like that, a person that work for the interest of the D language. Also mitigate what needs to be done and what is supposed to be the direction of the project.

On Thursday, 12 November 2020 at 15:57:44 UTC, Jack wrote:
> .NET 5.0 is going to be multiplatform[1] and getting alot more sugax-syntax[2]. Can't this make people pick C# rather D? I'm a bit afraid D can gain less popularity due to that or even make people switch. What are your thoughts on that?
>
>
> [1]: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/dotnet/announcing-net-5-0/
> [2]: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/dotnet/c-9-0-on-the-record/

Not a "threat", but rather another one "nail in the lid of the coffin".

NET5 eliminates several important advantages of D - native compilation, fast start, inability to decompile, multiplatformy.

And NET5 is much more stable for the user. I have experience of simply recompiling a 14 year old application from NET2.0->NET4.5

On Friday, 13 November 2020 at 08:11:17 UTC, Siemargl wrote:
> And NET5 is much more stable for the user. I have experience of simply recompiling a 14 year old application from NET2.0->NET4.5

I would not trust Microsoft to support other platforms than the ones they make money of... All it takes is a new CEO...

On Friday, 13 November 2020 at 08:11:17 UTC, Siemargl wrote:
> On Thursday, 12 November 2020 at 15:57:44 UTC, Jack wrote:
>> .NET 5.0 is going to be multiplatform[1] and getting alot more sugax-syntax[2]. Can't this make people pick C# rather D? I'm a bit afraid D can gain less popularity due to that or even make people switch. What are your thoughts on that?
>>
>>
>> [1]: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/dotnet/announcing-net-5-0/
>> [2]: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/dotnet/c-9-0-on-the-record/
>
> Not a "threat", but rather another one "nail in the lid of the coffin".
>
> NET5 eliminates several important advantages of D - native compilation, fast start, inability to decompile, multiplatformy.
>
> And NET5 is much more stable for the user. I have experience of simply recompiling a 14 year old application from NET2.0->NET4.5

Many developers are sceptical of MS willingness to support other platforms long term. All it takes to wipe it out is a new CEO. Same with Swift.

The nail in the coffin would be to not fix those issues in D that require breaking changes (it isn't possible to satisfy everyone, so D has to select which application area to focus on).

On Friday, 13 November 2020 at 09:08:27 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:
> The nail in the coffin would be to not fix those issues in D that require breaking changes (it isn't possible to satisfy everyone, so D has to select which application area to focus on).

And just as an example, one "winning" strategy would be to try to become the dominating language for gui applications on Linux and go 100% with it at the expense of all other "niches". The current alternatives are not attractive because they either are corporate or lacking (Linux users are more likely to be favourable towards a non-corporate entity).

In my view that is not a difficult choice to make given the stiff competition for "generic languages". (And I don't even have a running Linux box at the moment, so I am not advocating.)

So it is essentially a management issue. Sometimes you just have to pick your poison and make some strategic moves, because stagnation is the only thing you'll get if you don't make waves yourself...

On Thursday, 12 November 2020 at 22:31:37 UTC, IGotD- wrote:
> On Thursday, 12 November 2020 at 22:11:33 UTC, Gregor Mückl wrote:
>> [...]
>

>
> The D project could need a person like that, a person that work for the interest of the D language. Also mitigate what needs to be done and what is supposed to be the direction of the project.

I've said this multiple times this year. I'm not sure if it's ever going to happen. Maybe a  question for the Dconf online Q&A.

On Friday, 13 November 2020 at 11:44:54 UTC, aberba wrote:
> [snip]
>
> I've said this multiple times this year. I'm not sure if it's ever going to happen. Maybe a  question for the Dconf online Q&A.

Easier said than done...

Here's a list of libraries used by a tiny aspnet core application:
Microsoft.AspNetCore.Antiforgery.dll
Microsoft.AspNetCore.Authentication.Abstractions.dll
Microsoft.AspNetCore.Authentication.Core.dll
Microsoft.AspNetCore.Authorization.dll
Microsoft.AspNetCore.Authorization.Policy.dll
Microsoft.AspNetCore.Connections.Abstractions.dll
Microsoft.AspNetCore.Cors.dll
Microsoft.AspNetCore.Cryptography.Internal.dll
Microsoft.AspNetCore.DataProtection.dll
Microsoft.AspNetCore.DataProtection.Abstractions.dll
Microsoft.AspNetCore.Diagnostics.Abstractions.dll
Microsoft.AspNetCore.Hosting.dll
Microsoft.AspNetCore.Hosting.Abstractions.dll
Microsoft.AspNetCore.Hosting.Server.Abstractions.dll
Microsoft.AspNetCore.Html.Abstractions.dll
Microsoft.AspNetCore.Http.dll
Microsoft.AspNetCore.Http.Abstractions.dll
Microsoft.AspNetCore.Http.Extensions.dll
Microsoft.AspNetCore.Http.Features.dll
Microsoft.AspNetCore.JsonPatch.dll
Microsoft.AspNetCore.Localization.dll
Microsoft.AspNetCore.Mvc.dll
Microsoft.AspNetCore.Mvc.Abstractions.dll
Microsoft.AspNetCore.Mvc.ApiExplorer.dll
Microsoft.AspNetCore.Mvc.Core.dll
Microsoft.AspNetCore.Mvc.Cors.dll
Microsoft.AspNetCore.Mvc.DataAnnotations.dll
Microsoft.AspNetCore.Mvc.Formatters.Json.dll
Microsoft.AspNetCore.Mvc.Localization.dll
Microsoft.AspNetCore.Mvc.Razor.dll
Microsoft.AspNetCore.Mvc.Razor.Extensions.dll
Microsoft.AspNetCore.Mvc.RazorPages.dll
Microsoft.AspNetCore.Mvc.TagHelpers.dll
Microsoft.AspNetCore.Mvc.ViewFeatures.dll
Microsoft.AspNetCore.Razor.dll
Microsoft.AspNetCore.Razor.Language.dll
Microsoft.AspNetCore.Razor.Runtime.dll
Microsoft.AspNetCore.ResponseCaching.Abstractions.dll
Microsoft.AspNetCore.Routing.dll
Microsoft.AspNetCore.Routing.Abstractions.dll
Microsoft.AspNetCore.Server.Kestrel.dll
Microsoft.AspNetCore.Server.Kestrel.Core.dll
Microsoft.AspNetCore.Server.Kestrel.Https.dll
Microsoft.AspNetCore.Server.Kestrel.Transport.Abstractions.dll
Microsoft.AspNetCore.Server.Kestrel.Transport.Sockets.dll
Microsoft.AspNetCore.StaticFiles.dll
Microsoft.AspNetCore.WebUtilities.dll
Microsoft.CodeAnalysis.dll
Microsoft.CodeAnalysis.CSharp.dll
Microsoft.CodeAnalysis.Razor.dll
Microsoft.DotNet.PlatformAbstractions.dll
Microsoft.EntityFrameworkCore.dll
Microsoft.EntityFrameworkCore.Abstractions.dll
Microsoft.EntityFrameworkCore.Relational.dll
Microsoft.EntityFrameworkCore.SqlServer.dll
Microsoft.Extensions.Caching.Abstractions.dll
Microsoft.Extensions.Caching.Memory.dll
Microsoft.Extensions.Configuration.dll
Microsoft.Extensions.Configuration.Abstractions.dll
Microsoft.Extensions.Configuration.Binder.dll
Microsoft.Extensions.Configuration.EnvironmentVariables.dll
Microsoft.Extensions.Configuration.FileExtensions.dll
Microsoft.Extensions.DependencyInjection.dll
Microsoft.Extensions.DependencyInjection.Abstractions.dll
Microsoft.Extensions.DependencyModel.dll
Microsoft.Extensions.FileProviders.Abstractions.dll
Microsoft.Extensions.FileProviders.Composite.dll
Microsoft.Extensions.FileProviders.Embedded.dll
Microsoft.Extensions.FileProviders.Physical.dll
Microsoft.Extensions.FileSystemGlobbing.dll
Microsoft.Extensions.Hosting.Abstractions.dll
Microsoft.Extensions.Localization.dll
Microsoft.Extensions.Localization.Abstractions.dll
Microsoft.Extensions.Logging.dll
Microsoft.Extensions.Logging.Abstractions.dll
Microsoft.Extensions.ObjectPool.dll
Microsoft.Extensions.Options.dll
Microsoft.Extensions.Primitives.dll
Microsoft.Extensions.WebEncoders.dll
Microsoft.Net.Http.Headers.dll
Microsoft.Win32.Primitives.dll
Microsoft.Win32.Registry.dll
Newtonsoft.Json.dll
Newtonsoft.Json.Bson.dll
Remotion.Linq.dll
Swashbuckle.AspNetCore.dll
Swashbuckle.AspNetCore.Swagger.dll
Swashbuckle.AspNetCore.SwaggerGen.dll
Swashbuckle.AspNetCore.SwaggerUI.dll
System.AppContext.dll
System.Buffers.dll
System.Collections.dll
System.Collections.Concurrent.dll
System.Collections.Immutable.dll
System.Collections.NonGeneric.dll
System.Collections.Specialized.dll
System.ComponentModel.dll
System.ComponentModel.Annotations.dll
System.ComponentModel.EventBasedAsync.dll
System.ComponentModel.Primitives.dll
System.ComponentModel.TypeConverter.dll
System.Composition.AttributedModel.dll
System.Composition.Convention.dll
System.Composition.Hosting.dll
System.Composition.Runtime.dll
System.Composition.TypedParts.dll
System.Configuration.ConfigurationManager.dll
System.Console.dll
System.Data.Common.dll
System.Data.SqlClient.dll
System.Diagnostics.Contracts.dll
System.Diagnostics.Debug.dll
System.Diagnostics.DiagnosticSource.dll
System.Diagnostics.FileVersionInfo.dll
System.Diagnostics.PerformanceCounter.dll
System.Diagnostics.Process.dll
System.Diagnostics.StackTrace.dll
System.Diagnostics.TextWriterTraceListener.dll
System.Diagnostics.Tools.dll
System.Diagnostics.TraceSource.dll
System.Diagnostics.Tracing.dll
System.Drawing.Primitives.dll
System.Dynamic.Runtime.dll
System.Globalization.dll
System.Globalization.Calendars.dll
System.Globalization.Extensions.dll
System.Interactive.Async.dll
System.IO.dll
System.IO.Abstractions.dll
System.IO.Compression.dll
System.IO.Compression.ZipFile.dll
System.IO.FileSystem.dll
System.IO.FileSystem.DriveInfo.dll
System.IO.FileSystem.Primitives.dll
System.IO.FileSystem.Watcher.dll
System.IO.IsolatedStorage.dll
System.IO.MemoryMappedFiles.dll
System.IO.Pipelines.dll
System.IO.Pipes.dll
System.IO.UnmanagedMemoryStream.dll
System.Linq.dll
System.Linq.Expressions.dll
System.Linq.Parallel.dll
System.Linq.Queryable.dll
System.Memory.dll
System.Net.Http.dll
System.Net.NameResolution.dll
System.Net.NetworkInformation.dll
System.Net.Ping.dll
System.Net.Primitives.dll
System.Net.Requests.dll
System.Net.Security.dll
System.Net.Sockets.dll
System.Net.WebHeaderCollection.dll
System.Net.WebSockets.dll
System.Net.WebSockets.Client.dll
System.Numerics.Vectors.dll
System.ObjectModel.dll
System.Private.ServiceModel.dll
System.Reflection.dll
System.Reflection.DispatchProxy.dll
System.Reflection.Extensions.dll
System.Reflection.Metadata.dll
System.Reflection.Primitives.dll
System.Resources.Reader.dll
System.Resources.ResourceManager.dll
System.Resources.Writer.dll
System.Runtime.dll
System.Runtime.CompilerServices.Unsafe.dll
System.Runtime.CompilerServices.VisualC.dll
System.Runtime.Extensions.dll
System.Runtime.Handles.dll
System.Runtime.InteropServices.dll
System.Runtime.InteropServices.RuntimeInformation.dll
System.Runtime.Numerics.dll
System.Runtime.Serialization.Formatters.dll
System.Runtime.Serialization.Json.dll
System.Runtime.Serialization.Primitives.dll
System.Runtime.Serialization.Xml.dll
System.Security.AccessControl.dll
System.Security.Claims.dll
System.Security.Cryptography.Algorithms.dll
System.Security.Cryptography.Cng.dll
System.Security.Cryptography.Csp.dll
System.Security.Cryptography.Encoding.dll
System.Security.Cryptography.Primitives.dll
System.Security.Cryptography.X509Certificates.dll
System.Security.Cryptography.Xml.dll
System.Security.Permissions.dll
System.Security.Principal.dll
System.Security.Principal.Windows.dll
System.Security.SecureString.dll
System.ServiceModel.NetTcp.dll
System.ServiceModel.Primitives.dll
System.Text.Encoding.dll
System.Text.Encoding.CodePages.dll
System.Text.Encoding.Extensions.dll
System.Text.Encodings.Web.dll
System.Text.RegularExpressions.dll
System.Threading.dll
System.Threading.Overlapped.dll
System.Threading.Tasks.dll
System.Threading.Tasks.Extensions.dll
System.Threading.Tasks.Parallel.dll
System.Threading.Thread.dll
System.Threading.ThreadPool.dll
System.Threading.Timer.dll
System.ValueTuple.dll
System.Xml.ReaderWriter.dll
System.Xml.XDocument.dll
System.Xml.XmlDocument.dll
System.Xml.XmlSerializer.dll
System.Xml.XPath.dll
System.Xml.XPath.XDocument.dll
214 files, 32mb.

On Friday, 13 November 2020 at 14:14:33 UTC, Kagamin wrote:
> [...]

Meaning? .NET now has a linker and AOT compilation, so those 32 mb are just if one doesn't bother to optimize it further.

Plus it shows one of the current weakness of D, the amount of available libraries with similar maturity level.

On Friday, 13 November 2020 at 09:34:08 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:
> On Friday, 13 November 2020 at 09:08:27 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:
>> The nail in the coffin would be to not fix those issues in D that require breaking changes (it isn't possible to satisfy everyone, so D has to select which application area to focus on).
>
> And just as an example, one "winning" strategy would be to try to become the dominating language for gui applications on Linux and go 100% with it at the expense of all other "niches". The current alternatives are not attractive because they either are corporate or lacking (Linux users are more likely to be favourable towards a non-corporate entity).
>
...

In the GUI area, Web interfaces seem to have won. So NET is also ahead. But ASP.core is not so convenient, so not everything is lost.