On 02/04/2012 01:02 AM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
> "Nick Sabalausky"<a@a.a>  wrote in message
> news:jgij59$hc2$1@digitalmars.com...
>> "Zachary Lund"<admin@computerquip.com>  wrote in message
>> news:jghpk4$26uk$1@digitalmars.com...
>>>
>>> 2. Milestones and Organization
>>
>> This is non-corporate-backed OSS. People are free to work on what they
>> choose. We're not Bill Lumberg Waterfall Nazis here.
>>
>>> I cannot stand Windows. If Microsoft suddenly went bankrupt, Windows was
>>> never updated, and people had to move to MacOS or Linux, I would be the
>>> happiest man alive.
>>
>> Bleh. Apple makes MS look like the EFF. (And I'd sooner switch to a
>> graphing calculator as my primary PC than go back to OSX.) MS may be no
>> better than any other corporation, but Jobs's demise was the #1 best thing
>> to happen to technology since Win2K/XP. ('Course they couldn't get me to
>> use that Vista/Win7 trash if they paid me.)
>>
>>
>>> It also drives me insane that dmd for D2 is not named dmd2. There's no
>>> reason to not have it be dmd2 and you just stupidly caused
>>> incompatibility with the D1 executable.
>>
>> https://bitbucket.org/doob/dvm
>>
>> $dvm use 1.069
>> $dvm use 2.057
>> etc...
>>
>> Trivial problem trivially solved.
>>
>>> The .c extensions on C++ files... need I say more? That itself is a joke
>>> and seems to have been ignored when complaints about it came up.
>>
>> Everyone already knows and agrees.
>>
>
> I don't mean to be an ass about it, I know how infuriating it is to come
> into a group and get immediately lynched. It's just that every couple months
> we inevitably get yet another first-time (or nearly-first-time) poster who
> gives us a big essay on everything we're doing wrong and how they're going
> to swoop in and save us from ourselves with their basic observations, all of
> which inevitably fall into:
>
> A. Things everyone already knows, agrees on, and is being worked on.
>
> B. Things they can easily contribute to themselves.
>
> C. Things that are already taken care of.
>
> D. Things that have already been brought up, discussed, and are never going
> to happen (and have *then* been discussed a couple more times).
>
> E. Things that are just plain false.
>
> It's a pattern that just gets very old very quickly.
>

You seem to have ignored parts of my post. I said I would start contributing. I even mentioned DVM and why DVM shouldn't exist. And while you are not "Bill Lumberg Waterfall Nazis", I'm not sure why stating your short-term goals is such a problem. It creates the basics of organization and of itself would probably make several people happy at the cost of almost nothing.

Organization? What are we, "Bill Lumberg Waterfall Nazis"?

Also, I don't really care if things I brought up have been repeated, there is known knowledge as to why you chose the "solution" to the problem I stated. I even discussed this when I talked about the FAQ. If a question constantly comes up, it brings up an obvious unproductive problem and thus should be taken care of ahead of time in the FAQ.

On Saturday, 4 February 2012 at 07:00:53 UTC, James Miller wrote:
> no point sticking
> to D1 now that support has been officially dropped.

Will be dropped. It hasn't yet.

> The community needs some organisation. Currently DSource is not
> actually that useful, Trac is all about SVN, but D and most other
> libraries use git/GitHub which makes for a clunky experience.

GitHub is very new for the development history of D. Is it one year now?

> If
> D-Programming-Language.org had a projects section, it would make it
> much easier to manage and make more sense, there is no direct link
> from the official website to any centralized project repository, which
> makes discovery a nightmare.

There isn't a centralized projects repository. Dsource was, back in the day, but that obviously has had a falling out. There is working being done on a D "CPAN" called Orbit I believe. We'll see if the community does take it up.

Progress is being made on most everything listed and has already been greatly improved in the last couple years.

On 02/04/2012 03:02 AM, Jesse Phillips wrote:
> On Saturday, 4 February 2012 at 07:00:53 UTC, James Miller wrote:
>> no point sticking
>> to D1 now that support has been officially dropped.
>
> Will be dropped. It hasn't yet.
>
>> The community needs some organisation. Currently DSource is not
>> actually that useful, Trac is all about SVN, but D and most other
>> libraries use git/GitHub which makes for a clunky experience.
>
> GitHub is very new for the development history of D. Is it one year now?
>
>> If
>> D-Programming-Language.org had a projects section, it would make it
>> much easier to manage and make more sense, there is no direct link
>> from the official website to any centralized project repository, which
>> makes discovery a nightmare.
>
> There isn't a centralized projects repository. Dsource was, back in the
> day, but that obviously has had a falling out. There is working being
> done on a D "CPAN" called Orbit I believe. We'll see if the community
> does take it up.
>
> Progress is being made on most everything listed and has already been
> greatly improved in the last couple years.

CPAN for D would be amazing I think.

"Zachary Lund" <admin@computerquip.com> wrote in message news:jgipp1$u8r$1@digitalmars.com...
> On 02/04/2012 01:02 AM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
>> "Nick Sabalausky"<a@a.a>  wrote in message news:jgij59$hc2$1@digitalmars.com...
>>> "Zachary Lund"<admin@computerquip.com>  wrote in message news:jghpk4$26uk$1@digitalmars.com...
>>>>
>>>> 2. Milestones and Organization
>>>
>>> This is non-corporate-backed OSS. People are free to work on what they choose. We're not Bill Lumberg Waterfall Nazis here.
>>>
>>>> I cannot stand Windows. If Microsoft suddenly went bankrupt, Windows
>>>> was
>>>> never updated, and people had to move to MacOS or Linux, I would be the
>>>> happiest man alive.
>>>
>>> Bleh. Apple makes MS look like the EFF. (And I'd sooner switch to a
>>> graphing calculator as my primary PC than go back to OSX.) MS may be no
>>> better than any other corporation, but Jobs's demise was the #1 best
>>> thing
>>> to happen to technology since Win2K/XP. ('Course they couldn't get me to
>>> use that Vista/Win7 trash if they paid me.)
>>>
>>>
>>>> It also drives me insane that dmd for D2 is not named dmd2. There's no reason to not have it be dmd2 and you just stupidly caused incompatibility with the D1 executable.
>>>
>>> https://bitbucket.org/doob/dvm
>>>
>>> $dvm use 1.069
>>> $dvm use 2.057
>>> etc...
>>>
>>> Trivial problem trivially solved.
>>>
>>>> The .c extensions on C++ files... need I say more? That itself is a
>>>> joke
>>>> and seems to have been ignored when complaints about it came up.
>>>
>>> Everyone already knows and agrees.
>>>
>>
>> I don't mean to be an ass about it, I know how infuriating it is to come
>> into a group and get immediately lynched. It's just that every couple
>> months
>> we inevitably get yet another first-time (or nearly-first-time) poster
>> who
>> gives us a big essay on everything we're doing wrong and how they're
>> going
>> to swoop in and save us from ourselves with their basic observations, all
>> of
>> which inevitably fall into:
>>
>> A. Things everyone already knows, agrees on, and is being worked on.
>>
>> B. Things they can easily contribute to themselves.
>>
>> C. Things that are already taken care of.
>>
>> D. Things that have already been brought up, discussed, and are never
>> going
>> to happen (and have *then* been discussed a couple more times).
>>
>> E. Things that are just plain false.
>>
>> It's a pattern that just gets very old very quickly.
>>
>
> You seem to have ignored parts of my post. I said I would start contributing. I even mentioned DVM and why DVM shouldn't exist. And while you are not "Bill Lumberg Waterfall Nazis", I'm not sure why stating your short-term goals is such a problem. It creates the basics of organization and of itself would probably make several people happy at the cost of almost nothing.
>
> Organization? What are we, "Bill Lumberg Waterfall Nazis"?
>
> Also, I don't really care if things I brought up have been repeated, there is known knowledge as to why you chose the "solution" to the problem I stated. I even discussed this when I talked about the FAQ. If a question constantly comes up, it brings up an obvious unproductive problem and thus should be taken care of ahead of time in the FAQ.

I just don't see why you seem to care so incredibly much about such trivial matters as "dmd" vs "dmd2" and releases not limiting themselves to some sort of pre-determined "theme".

On Saturday, 4 February 2012 at 16:36:23 UTC, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
> "Zachary Lund" <admin@computerquip.com> wrote in message news:jgipp1$u8r$1@digitalmars.com...
>> On 02/04/2012 01:02 AM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
>>> "Nick Sabalausky"<a@a.a>  wrote in message
>>> news:jgij59$hc2$1@digitalmars.com...
>>>> "Zachary Lund"<admin@computerquip.com>  wrote in message
>>>> news:jghpk4$26uk$1@digitalmars.com...
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. Milestones and Organization
>>>>
>>>> This is non-corporate-backed OSS. People are free to work on what they
>>>> choose. We're not Bill Lumberg Waterfall Nazis here.
>>>>
>>>>> I cannot stand Windows. If Microsoft suddenly went bankrupt, Windows was
>>>>> never updated, and people had to move to MacOS or Linux, I would be the
>>>>> happiest man alive.
>>>>
>>>> Bleh. Apple makes MS look like the EFF. (And I'd sooner switch to a
>>>> graphing calculator as my primary PC than go back to OSX.) MS may be no
>>>> better than any other corporation, but Jobs's demise was the #1 best thing
>>>> to happen to technology since Win2K/XP. ('Course they couldn't get me to
>>>> use that Vista/Win7 trash if they paid me.)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> It also drives me insane that dmd for D2 is not named dmd2. There's no
>>>>> reason to not have it be dmd2 and you just stupidly caused
>>>>> incompatibility with the D1 executable.
>>>>
>>>> https://bitbucket.org/doob/dvm
>>>>
>>>> $dvm use 1.069
>>>> $dvm use 2.057
>>>> etc...
>>>>
>>>> Trivial problem trivially solved.
>>>>
>>>>> The .c extensions on C++ files... need I say more? That itself is a joke
>>>>> and seems to have been ignored when complaints about it came up.
>>>>
>>>> Everyone already knows and agrees.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don't mean to be an ass about it, I know how infuriating it is to come
>>> into a group and get immediately lynched. It's just that every couple months
>>> we inevitably get yet another first-time (or nearly-first-time) poster who
>>> gives us a big essay on everything we're doing wrong and how they're going
>>> to swoop in and save us from ourselves with their basic observations, all of
>>> which inevitably fall into:
>>>
>>> A. Things everyone already knows, agrees on, and is being worked on.
>>>
>>> B. Things they can easily contribute to themselves.
>>>
>>> C. Things that are already taken care of.
>>>
>>> D. Things that have already been brought up, discussed, and are never going
>>> to happen (and have *then* been discussed a couple more times).
>>>
>>> E. Things that are just plain false.
>>>
>>> It's a pattern that just gets very old very quickly.
>>>
>>
>> You seem to have ignored parts of my post. I said I would start contributing. I even mentioned DVM and why DVM shouldn't exist. And while you are not "Bill Lumberg Waterfall Nazis", I'm not sure why stating your short-term goals is such a problem. It creates the basics of organization and of itself would probably make several people happy at the cost of almost nothing.
>>
>> Organization? What are we, "Bill Lumberg Waterfall Nazis"?
>>
>> Also, I don't really care if things I brought up have been repeated, there is known knowledge as to why you chose the "solution" to the problem I stated. I even discussed this when I talked about the FAQ. If a question constantly comes up, it brings up an obvious unproductive problem and thus should be taken care of ahead of time in the FAQ.
>
> I just don't see why you seem to care so incredibly much about such trivial matters as "dmd" vs "dmd2" and releases not limiting themselves to some sort of pre-determined "theme".

1. I don't care about such trivial things since it doesn't make sense to change them currently. However, it was an obvious problem when the name was first set and other than D1 being deprecated, it's still a problem now (sort of). Arch Linux chose to remove the D1 package and add the D2 package and not keep both simply because of the retarded name incompatibilities.

2. How is that in any way limiting? It's not like people will work on bugs and someone else will come along and say, "Wait, that's not in our milestones! Shame on you!"

It does help people focus on prioritized bugs. However, that doesn't force them to work on a bug just because its in the milestone. If you want a community driven project, the community has to have some goal to work towards in order to be efficient or it's just a blob of random fixes and features that are randomly implemented, regardless of priority.

Bugzilla has a terrible system for emphasizing priority because a level of priority can mean a good amount of things. Github, I think, has a better system which uses labels and is much more specific while colors can give emphasis on how important that label is.

On Saturday, 4 February 2012 at 16:52:04 UTC, Zachary Lund wrote:

> Arch Linux chose to remove the D1 package and add the D2 package and not keep both simply because of the retarded name incompatibilities.

That just seems silly. The package builder can make the binary name whatever they choose. And from the Linux side it makes even less sense because it is extremely common. gcc, is it GCC 4.7, 3.2, 8.5, 967, clang? No, it is a symbolic link to whatever you want.

This is what hive have DDebber[1] doing, though because of your previous post I see that I got the version naming of libphobos2 wrong. I was going to develop it further to package Tango and allow v1 and 2 to install together, but such effort appears less and less important.

On Saturday, 4 February 2012 at 17:14:41 UTC, Jesse Phillips wrote:
> On Saturday, 4 February 2012 at 16:52:04 UTC, Zachary Lund wrote:
>
>> Arch Linux chose to remove the D1 package and add the D2 package and not keep both simply because of the retarded name incompatibilities.
>
> That just seems silly. The package builder can make the binary name whatever they choose. And from the Linux side it makes even less sense because it is extremely common. gcc, is it GCC 4.7, 3.2, 8.5, 967, clang? No, it is a symbolic link to whatever you want.
>
> This is what hive have DDebber[1] doing, though because of your previous post I see that I got the version naming of libphobos2 wrong. I was going to develop it further to package Tango and allow v1 and 2 to install together, but such effort appears less and less important.

The difference is that gcc is supposed to be interchangeable. The same can't be said for dmd1 and dmd2. While the results are sometimes different with different binaries of gcc, the idea is that it shouldn't be.

Basically, what happened was D said, "dmd isn't similar to dmd, but keeping the name dmd makes sense".

On 2/3/2012 3:12 PM, Zachary Lund wrote:
> Here are some things I'm unhappy with currently.

Thanks for taking the time to post this. I agree with most of it, and we are working hard to try to improve things.

For more specifics, such as a list of things the FAQ should cover, can you please post a bug report for it?

On 2/3/2012 4:11 PM, bearophile wrote:
> Aren't less than 10 minutes enough to fix this simple problem? I don't know
> why Walter likes to use ".c" as suffix for those files, I don't remember his
> answers on this topic, I have never appreciated this naming decision.

Back in the day, when most of this was started and the African continent was still attached to South America, the following extensions were in wide use for C++ files:

.cpp
.c++
.cxx
.C (that's capital C; obviously that never worked on Windows)
.c

(and corresponding .h suffixes).

None of them achieved any dominance. I myself used .cpp/.hpp for a while, and simply grew tired of it. The compiler sources were originally in C, and when they were converted to C++ it was easier to just keep the same file names (and yes, .c was also in wide use for C++). All the C++ compilers accepted .c files, distinguishing by using a switch (dmc -cpp) or by name (gcc/g++). It just was never any problem.

For me, I find worrying about it about as productive as arguing whether tabs should be set to 4 or 8.

On 2/3/2012 4:28 PM, H. S. Teoh wrote:
> I'd like to help. My D coding skills are still not up to snuff for
> fixing the hard stuff, since I only just started learning D. But doc
> comments I can do. However, there's no documentation that I can find
> that describes the procedure for sending contributions. Such as where to
> upload patches, what format they should be in, how to get diffs in the
> right format, etc.. All this should be documented so that willing
> contributors can jump in immediately, instead of being put off by having
> to jump through unnecessary hoops (like hunting for possibly
> non-existent documentation on how to contribute).

It's all up on https://github.com/D-Programming-Language which is where anyone can make contributions via forking and doing "pull" requests. The instructions/tutorials on how to do that are on github.


>> This is probably a lost cause but I've recently seen various
>> complaints about the name "D".

You're right that searching for "D" is hopeless. But searching for "D programming" works great.