December 14, 2011
On 2011-12-14 10:56, Walter Bright wrote:
> On 12/14/2011 12:45 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
>> The few times I've contributed to the compiler I've sent a patch or a
>> pull
>> request and the end result is that nothing happens. If I'm lucky I get
>> a few
>> comments, I answer them and then nothing.
>
> There's currently one open dmd pull request from you. Any others you've
> done have been incorporated.

Yeah and what happened to that. I got a few comments about the tests failing, but they ended up being a misunderstanding.

The same thing happened recently with my attempt of fixing dynamic libraries. It always feel like I'm ending with a question I never get an answer to.

> There are currently 68 open dmd pull requests and 490
> closed/incorporated ones.

I added patches to a few bugzilla issues as well. But they are long outdated by now (the patches that is).

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
December 14, 2011
On 12/14/2011 2:36 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
> Yeah and what happened to that. I got a few comments about the tests failing,
> but they ended up being a misunderstanding.

I need to take care of that.

> The same thing happened recently with my attempt of fixing dynamic libraries. It
> always feel like I'm ending with a question I never get an answer to.

I don't know the answers for doing dynamic libraries, which is why they aren't done.

> I added patches to a few bugzilla issues as well. But they are long outdated by
> now (the patches that is).

I'd appreciate if they were submitted as pull requests.

December 14, 2011
On 2011-12-14 11:29, Walter Bright wrote:
> On 12/14/2011 2:24 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
>> I don't know, it's more about in what state D2 and Phobos is and what
>> changes D1
>> will get before the support ends. I'm thinking mostly of dynamic
>> libraries.
>
> It's likely D1 and D2 will get dynamic libraries at the same time,
> because it's mostly a backend issue.

I thought it was mostly a runtime issue. I managed to implement it for Tango without any changes to the compiler.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
December 14, 2011
On 2011-12-14 11:49, Walter Bright wrote:
> On 12/14/2011 2:36 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
>> Yeah and what happened to that. I got a few comments about the tests
>> failing,
>> but they ended up being a misunderstanding.
>
> I need to take care of that.

Thanks.

>> The same thing happened recently with my attempt of fixing dynamic
>> libraries. It
>> always feel like I'm ending with a question I never get an answer to.
>
> I don't know the answers for doing dynamic libraries, which is why they
> aren't done.

I'm not suggesting that you would know everything but at least that we could agree what we want to do about TLS and dynamic libraries on Mac OS X.

1. Should we stick with the TLS implementation we have and wait for 10.8
	1.A. Does this mean 10.6 will not be supported in the future
	1.B. Will we be able to solve the TLS issues with dynamic libraries with the current implementation

2. Should we try to emulate the 10.7 implementation our self to support 10.6 as well and at the same time be forward compatible

I would hope that these are question we could try to figure out and agree upon.

>> I added patches to a few bugzilla issues as well. But they are long
>> outdated by
>> now (the patches that is).
>
> I'd appreciate if they were submitted as pull requests.

Yes, they were added a long time ago, before the move to github.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
December 14, 2011
On 14/12/2011 09:46, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
> On 12/14/11 2:30 AM, Don wrote:
>> On 14.12.2011 05:37, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>>> There is no abandonment. Also, where is that 50/50 estimate from? Just
>>> curious.
>>
>> The D2 community is definitely bigger than the D1 community. But how
>> much more?
>
> I presume it's quite a bit larger. But then both are small, and we're
> interested in the potential and the rate of adoption.
>
>> It's hard to be sure, but the Tango users used to be 75% of the
>> community, based on a few polls that were held, but they never had much
>> representation on the ng. I guess between half and 2/3 are gone now.
>
> That seems a reasonable assessment. Possibly even more left.
>
>> I don't think the entire D community is as big as it was back then
>> (based on number of public repositories).
>
> That is also entirely possible.
>
>> Additionally, the number of contributors, and level of activity, in
>> Tango, was higher than Phobos has ever had.
>
> Agreed.
>
> But this is all missing the mark - why would we cry over spilled milk.
> The point is assessing the state of affairs the minute before the
> announcement. How active was Tango? How active were the Tango forums?
> Where were other forums of the D1 community? In this day and age, I'd be
> hard-pressed to think of an active programming language community that
> has no online presence whatsoever.
>
> To add to that, there was no trickle of bug reports or pull requests for
> D1, although clearly D1 does have its bugs and issues. I haven't
> followed Tango closely, but if D1 had a large active community, Tango
> would receive a lot of attention from its users as it's the de facto
> standard library for D1. Yet the last post
> (http://www.dsource.org/projects/tango/forums/topic/903) dates from
> March 30. The intervals between changes to the trunk
> (http://www.dsource.org/projects/tango/changeset/5691/) are measured in
> months.
>
> I hope you'll agree that one would be hard-pressed to infer from the
> evidence there is that there's a large, active, and thriving D1 community.

Many of the active contributors to Tango and other D1 projects (millions of lines of code in total) have completely abandoned D now, moving back to C, C++, Java, and other languages.

Why?

See the many posts at: http://h3.gd/devlog/
And also: http://www.jfbillingsley.com/blog/?p=53

These issues are why they left D. Notice how they're not just D1 problems, for the most part, they still exist with D2 (progress has been made with some of the issues). Some issues I've pulled out (by no means all of them, see the above posts for more info):

* OPTLINK/OMF/The horrific windows situation
* The GC
* .di files
* forward references/cyclic imports
* Long standing bugs with patches, lots of votes and no fix applied
* Decisions being made with NO community input. Cough.

Things have been changing rapidly since the move to github, and many things that drove them away are being worked on, but still... They didn't migrate to D2 because it wasn't remotely stable, and D1 still wasn't (isn't!) finished. D2 still isn't stable/complete, and has inherited many issues from pre-D1.

I really hope it is before you kill off D1.

-- 
Robert
http://octarineparrot.com/
December 14, 2011
On Wed, 14 Dec 2011 11:15:58 +0100
Jacob Carlborg <doob@me.com> wrote:

> I don't know if all of them are successful but important: Tango, DWT, Minid, Orange,

Not to say those are not important, but there are, afaict, falling in the category of D1's ecosystem, not end-user apps.

Otoh Tango is ported to D2, Minid has moved to Croc, while DWT & Orange have D2 ports.

> DVM,

don't know about that one, but

> xfbuild to mention a few.

is revived with a D2 port.


So, it looks that most of the stuff is ported to D2 and therefore not a great loss.


Sincerely,
Gour

-- 
It is far better to discharge one's prescribed duties, even though faultily, than another's duties perfectly. Destruction in the course of performing one's own duty is better than engaging in another's duties, for to follow another's path is dangerous.

http://atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810


December 14, 2011
On 14/12/2011 08:13, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
> On 12/14/11 1:35 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
>> No. It's not so much about the result (because I know basically everyone
>> would vote to discontinue the D1 support), it's more about the attitude
>> and the way it's handled.
>
> How would you have handled the situation if you were in our place?

"<your list of reasons why you're discontinuing D1>
...
It is for these reasons we are planning to discontinue D1 support on December 31, 2012. Does anyone have any reasons why D1 support should be continued after these dates, or is there anything we've not thought about?

For those of you still using D1, what can we do to make a transition more tempting and as pain-free as possible?"

The result would almost certainly been the same, but you would have a better idea of what's missing in D2 that D1 has, and this would seem like more of a community decision.

Obviously I'm not suggesting that either you or Walter should spent time working on things you have little or no interest in, but this was incredibly sudden, and had no community input.

Side note: If you'd done the above and worded it correctly, you may have found someone to take over maintenance of D1 until support ends, thus reducing Walter's workload even sooner (just to clarify, this is just speculation and opinion, I'm not saying it would have happened).

-- 
Robert
http://octarineparrot.com/
December 14, 2011
On Wednesday, 14 December 2011 at 10:25:59 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
> There are constantly around 25 people in the Tango channel on IRC.

A warning for those not familiar with IRC: this is not a very good metric. The #d channel has 101 people at this moment, but I don't recall most of them to ever say something.

https://www.google.com/search?q=irc+idling
December 14, 2011
Before I say anything, I want to say that I always used Phobos because I do not want to sound to some people like Tango advocate. I humbly believe Tango is still superior in many places comparing to Phobos. Take a look at Tango conduits for an example, and you will understand what I mean. Tango has been made to be a framework ready for enterprise use, and I seriously believe Tango, if ported to work on top of druntime and phobos will still attract users.

I live in Java world nowadays, where Java IO and NIO 1 and 2 are standards. Tango is very close to NIO, and I believe it has been modeled after Java NIO. Kudos to designers and developers. I always wished it had been refactored to work on top of Phobos, which I still count as a low-level library.

In my perfect D world, druntime would be the lowest level library, phobos little bit higher, but still low level, and the third layer would be Tango, with all high-level features it possesses.

Kind regards
December 14, 2011
"Don" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message news:jc9mqg$lp$1@digitalmars.com...
>
> The D2 community is definitely bigger than the D1 community. But how much more?
>
> It's hard to be sure, but the Tango users used to be 75% of the community,
> based on a few polls that were held, but they never had much
> representation on the ng. I guess between half and 2/3 are gone now.
> I don't think the entire D community is as big as it was back then (based
> on number of public repositories).
> Additionally, the number of contributors, and level of activity, in Tango,
> was higher than Phobos has ever had.
>
>>> I suspect you don't know much about the D1 community. (Note that only a small fraction of D users have ever used the newsgroup, and it's mostly people with an interest in language design. They are not representative).
>>>

A year and a half ago (May 2010), I put up a poll checking D1 and D2 usage (It also had "D1, but intend to move to D2"). I knew Tango people avoided this NG, so I posted it to both this NG *and* to the Tango forums (BTW, if the Tango forums have low activity, isn't that indicative of low interest in and usage of D1? If not, then where is this significant D1 community?).

While I admit I don't recall the exact numbers, the "Sticking with D1" group was indeed very, very small. And that was way back a year and a half ago. *Plus*, that was even before TDPL was released (at least according to Amazon). So even as small as the proportion of D1 users was way back then, there's every reason to beleave that it's now even much smaller.