On 5/15/19 9:35 AM, Margo wrote:
> Unlike D, you can simply install Crystal or Go and create a high performance website/microservice/... within minutes.
> 
> D does not work like this. There is literally no interest into a build-in fiber based  solution. Unless you consider vibe.d as "performant", when its performing at barely PHP levels.

This quoted stuff here is also a complete load of bull.

On Wednesday, 15 May 2019 at 18:43:38 UTC, Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) wrote:

> Umm, no, you're not right. I use D for HTTP, and you'll find that many people here do.

I think what it amounts to is that you use the language you're comfortable with because you're doing the same thing no matter which language it is. You don't choose a language for csv support or SQLite support, because csv files and .sqlite files hold the same data independent of the language. R is seeing a lot of momentum in the web space. It's not because it's a great web language but because folks do their statistical analysis and then they want to share it with the world.

> And Crystal...I don't even know that one, but a quick search shows it's not even 1.0 yet, making it more than a little bizarre that someone making the arguments you're making would suggest it over D. You're not actually interested in making a real point, you're just here to argue, right?

It read to me like an attempt to spam about Crystal. Last I checked, Crystal didn't even have Windows support. A more sensible list would have included Java, Scala, Clojure, C#, Kotlin, Python, or Ruby rather than Crystal if you're making a point about hiring programmers.

On Wednesday, 15 May 2019 at 15:15:26 UTC, bachmeier wrote:
> Trying to make a push into the web space as a way to increase D usage is a complete waste of time. That is extremely competitive, with language after language doing the same things, and no hope for a new language to gain interest.
>
> Having said that, there is nothing stopping anyone that thinks D offers big advantages over the alternatives from creating something and making their billions. This has come up many times. I don't understand what the complaint is. Nobody's stopping anyone from working on it. You don't need permission.

It depends. I agree that if one looks purely from web programming perspective, all other considerations ditched, there are probably better alterantives in other relatively new languages like F#, Scala, Kotlin or Go.

The reason one might choose D is that if it still stays reasonably close to the best ones, you can use the same language for systems programming. With the alternatives I mentioned, one might need to use two langugages when there's need to do, for example, data crunching. This can be a bigger disadvantage for some than the lack of some web related bells and whistles in D.

So we have little hope if we try to market ourselves as with "better" MVC models or database automation. But by talking about our low-level fallback feature, we offer something the majority of others do not.

On Thursday, 16 May 2019 at 08:17:26 UTC, Dukc wrote:
>
> The reason one might choose D is that if it still stays reasonably close to the best ones, you can use the same language for systems programming. With the alternatives I mentioned, one might need to use two langugages when there's need to do, for example, data crunching. This can be a bigger disadvantage for some than the lack of some web related bells and whistles in D.
>

That HR guy(or gal) makes it pretty clear, there is no other activities exists except weeb development. Who's in their own mind needs a language that doesn't do *THAT*-only thing? Nobody!

And also I find the fact that web folk saying that normal OS's is in decline and web is the next desktop just silly, like if there is no browser thing exists and they run their Electron apps directly on our hardware (phew, hardware? so archaic. can't wait to see the fancy sci-fi holograms that descends straight from the clouds)

On Wednesday, 15 May 2019 at 15:15:26 UTC, bachmeier wrote:
> On Wednesday, 15 May 2019 at 13:35:57 UTC, Margo wrote:
>
>> Talking about D for web development, simply does not work as there is no interest here.
>
> Trying to make a push into the web space as a way to increase D usage is a complete waste of time. That is extremely competitive, with language after language doing the same things, and no hope for a new language to gain interest.

Well, there is hope for a new infrastructure to gain interest if it is domain specific, but it isn't really making a good argument for a general purpose language.

One such example is server-less event-driven websites running on cloud-solutions. The language used in event handlers is less important, could be javascript for that matter (e.g. Google Functions). Although something domain specific probably would be better.

Of course, a general purpose system level language is used for implementing the infrastructure that enables this, but that is a very small market.

On the other hand, a language that allows you to build domain specific features on top of it, with ease, could offer something unique.

Not really a B&W issue, but most, if not all, current languages fails at that critical "with ease" requirement.

On Wednesday, 15 May 2019 at 18:43:38 UTC, Nick Sabalausky (Abscissa) wrote:
> Umm, no, you're not right. I use D for HTTP, and you'll find that many people here do.

And that is the issue, is it not. A small group of people are not a reflection of a performance based HTTP solution.

> And I'd literally sooner kill myself than go back to suffering through the festering cr*pfest that is PHP.

And yet, you are reading most of your websites using that "cr*pfest ". Its always popular to b*tch about PHP but it gets the job done. Unlike D that just can not get any traction because it keep spreading its resources left and right between C/C++, that very few people are interested in. You know that C++ has taken over most of D its advantages right? Rust is a better C++ replacement. Let alone the C alternatives.

> Switching to Go would be like fighting with one hand tied behind my back. And Crystal...

> I don't even know that one, but a quick search shows it's not even 1.0 yet, making it more than a little bizarre that someone making the arguments you're making would suggest it over D.

Maybe because despite being pre-1.0, it actually performance 5 times better then D? Its easy to judge a language on a label without trying it out yourself, is it not :)

Let me help...

https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/#section=test&runid=2539a0c7-934c-4eaf-93ed-a1980566cffe&hw=ph&test=fortune&l=zdk8af-7

Yea, D is really bad with vibe.d, when it comes down to web performance.

> You're not actually interested in making a real point, you're just here to argue, right?

Tomato, Potato ...

I see mostly people here that are delusional about D its future. And as i pointed out in my post, there are simply better alternatives for anything HTTP related then D. If you can not handle this, ...

On Sunday, 19 May 2019 at 01:45:07 UTC, Margo wrote:
> And that is the issue, is it not. A small group of people are not a reflection of a performance based HTTP solution.

Well, but I don't think a very high performance HTTP solution is a requirement to succeed for a language.

It is becoming a requirement to have an easy-to-use HTTPS solution. Easy to use with "normal" performance is far more important than being superior on some very narrow metrics. The vast majority of HTTP servers do not need very high theoretical HTTP performance.

If you really need high performance you would nevertheless have to look at a scalable distributed solution, and then you are locked to more tricky cloud based solutions that have been through heavy duty testing... which no small language can ever provide. You cannot establish market confidence of a high level of reliability without a large user base and backing by a major entity anyway. If you need to run something that requires a lot of throughput, then you probably also care a lot about established reliability and support.


> C++ has taken over most of D its advantages right? Rust is a better C++ replacement.

I don't really think Rust is displacing C++. Rust has some of the same issues as D in that regard. Vendors support C++, not Rust. The biggest lost opportunity for D was to not align its lower level semantics with C++. If you choose to be different in ways that make you incompatible with the status quo then there should be substantial benefits to those choices.

For some Rust has provided that by their ownership model, but I suspect that it is not really used all that much for low level programming as it quickly becomes inconvenient. Rust seems to be much more of an application-engine programming language, it has a narrow application field where it is better than C++, but not if you look more broadly at all the areas where C++ is used.

> Maybe because despite being pre-1.0, it actually performance 5 times better then D? Its easy to judge a language on a label without trying it out yourself, is it not :)

Both Crystal and D have LLVM based compilation, so for comparable codebases there should be no real difference.

Anyway, Crystal looks more like it would appeal to people looking for a replacement for a scripting language. Which is good. But it will never stand a chance in embedded programming. D could, if that had been a priority, sadly it isn't, so neither does D. As such C++ is pretty much irreplaceable at this point, unless you are willing to go out of your way to use something esoteric. Only a small minority do that.


> future. And as i pointed out in my post, there are simply better alternatives for anything HTTP related then D. If you can not handle this, ...

Better depends on what you try to achieve. To me being better for anything HTTP related has less to do with the language and more to do with the infrastructure around it as well as cloud support.

Also, it depends on what you interface with. Node.js might not be the best base for a HTTP server, but the fact that you get to use the same language on both server and client does make it superior for many developers.

Same goes for vibe.d.  If your write clients in D or has D as your main language then vibe.d will be superior in many cases.

Most HTTP sever-frameworks are simple and very similar. (Cloud solutions are more diverse.)