Don wrote:

> And since Object now contains a factory method, there's considerable potential for deep unification.

Except that factory is a very bad name to use in D. Considering D's property syntax, factory will imply that you get an instance of some factory. Methods in D doing something should be verbs, and this is even more important for official API's. I suggest create.

Although I don't agree with putting a wrapper for ClassInfo.create in Object just for the sake of it, in the first place :P

-- 
Lars Ivar Igesund
blog at http://larsivi.net
DSource, #d.tango & #D: larsivi
Dancing the Tango

Nick Sabalausky wrote:

> "Bill Baxter" <wbaxter@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:mailman.54.1227583827.22690.digitalmars-d@puremagic.com...
> On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 11:48 AM, Ary Borenszweig <ary@esperanto.org.ar>
> wrote:
>>> I liked the way you wrote this. :-)
>>>
>>> I think neither __traits nor a property is good enough for compile-time reflection. I think just one property is enough.
>>>
>>> For example in Java you do:
>>>
>>> someInstance.getClass()
>>>
>>> and then you enter "the reflection world", which uses the same language
>>> as
>>> Java, but it's at a different level.
>>>
>>> So:
>>>
>>> var.reflect
>>>
>>> or something like that would be awesome. Then you can do:
>>>
>>> - something.reflect.methods
>>> - something.reflect.isVirtual
>>> - something.reflect.isAbstract
>>> - something.reflect() // same as something.reflect.compileTimeValue
>>> - something.reflect.fields
>>> - etc.
>>>
>>> So you just don't allow "reflect" (or whatever) as a field name (if you
>>> define it, it's an error, much like "sizeof"), but once you enter
>>> "reflect"
>>> the compiler can add as many name as it wants, nobody can override
>>> these. "reflect" is smart so that for an expression, it return a
>>> specific (compile-time) type; for classes, another (compile-time) type;
>>> for variables, another (compile-time) type; etc.
>>
>>Or you could just call it traits.
>>
>>something.traits.methods
>>something.traits.max
>>something.traits.sizeof
>>(1+34.).traits.typeof
>>
>>I do like the general idea of unifying this stuff.  Can you make an alias or variable of this .traits/.reflect type?  Can it return a metaclass type of some sort so that an alias would be possible?  I.e. alias t = something.traits;
>>
> 
> That would make it much easier to port over Java code that uses reflection. And even aside from that, I think it's a very nice and clean solution.

vote++

-- 
Lars Ivar Igesund
blog at http://larsivi.net
DSource, #d.tango & #D: larsivi
Dancing the Tango

Bill Baxter wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 11:48 AM, Ary Borenszweig <ary@esperanto.org.ar> wrote:
>> Jarrett Billingsley escribió:
>>> Once upon a time, D did not have string mixins, or CTFE, or templates,
>>> or any of the fun things we have today.  Even so, it was still
>>> important to be able to access some information about types.  So
>>> Walter made it possible to query some basic information - the
>>> initialization value, minimum and maximum allowable values, byte size
>>> and alignment etc. - directly from the types as properties.  Neat.
>>>
>>> Then D got templates.  D's templates were based on C++'s, to an
>>> extent, and therefore made use of specialization (and by corollary,
>>> SFINAE) to determine which template to instantiate.  By their nature,
>>> templates are a sort of way of introspecting types.  So now D has two
>>> ways to find out things about types.  Okay.
>>>
>>> It turned out that templates were not always powerful enough - or
>>> sufficiently concise - to express some ideas.  So Walter came up with
>>> the is() expression (originally the "iftype" statement which begat
>>> "is()" and "static if") to query other, more interesting information
>>> about types.  It's _kind of_ like template specialization but has some
>>> extra features that specialization doesn't.  Now D has three ways to
>>> find out things about types.  Hm.
>>>
>>> Along comes D2, and with it, the __traits keyword.  __traits is
>>> wonderful (except for the double-underscore name, anyway).  It's
>>> extensible, flexible, and can answer queries about types and other
>>> program objects in a way that would be extremely convoluted or cryptic
>>> if templates or the is() expression were extended.
>>>
>>> But now D programs have _four_ ways to ask questions about themselves.
>>>
>>> Some of these methods overlap but with wildly different syntax.  Many
>>> questions have to be composed out of these four disparate methods in
>>> unintuitive manners.  Walter's "Templates Revisited" article says that
>>> "[m]any useful aspects of C++ templates have been discovered rather
>>> than designed," but in all honesty, this is exactly the situation with
>>> D's compile-time introspection.  D's templates are better, yes, but
>>> the problem has simply been promoted to a wider scope.
>>>
>>> So what can we do?  I've been thinking about it and I think that
>>> __traits, coupled with the new template constraints, can handle just
>>> about everything.  Does that mean we ditch all the other syntax?  Not
>>> necessarily - it's just that __traits can be the _backend_ for many
>>> other features.
>>>
>>> First of all __traits' name has to be revised.  The double-underscore
>>> just isn't working for me.  I think it would be a fair tradeoff to
>>> rename it "traits" and rename the std.traits and core.traits modules
>>> something else.  Come on Walter, I know that adding keywords is
>>> undesirable, but ffs, at some point _not_ adding keywords is just as
>>> bad.  D does not have a very large user or codebase, and if you're
>>> going to break backwards compatibility - _break it now_, before it's
>>> too late.  (besides, some of the keyword mass will need to be
>>> redistributed when imaginary/complex types are removed ;) )
>>>
>>> Secondly - the type properties are cute but they're not very flexible.
>>>  They can interfere with fields and methods, and so the compiler has
>>> to explicitly check that aggregate member names don't step on the
>>> built-in property names.  I think that "T.prop" could just be replaced
>>> with "traits(prop, T)".  traits(min, int), and so on.  Yes, it's
>>> longer - but that's what templates are for, if you really want it
>>> shorter: Min!(int).
>>>
>>> Third, the is() expression is greatly overstepping its bounds now that
>>> traits is around.  Why is there "is(T == class)", but
>>> __traits(isAssociativeArray, T)?  The is(T) form can be replaced by
>>> __traits(compiles).  The is(T : U) form can be replaced by
>>> traits(convertible).  The is(T == U) forms can all be replaced by
>>> traits(equivalent) and traits(isClass) and the like.  The strange is(T
>>> U), is(T U : V), is(T U == V) forms.. I'm not sure what to do about
>>> those.  The ones like is(T U == return) are an obvious abuse and
>>> should be replaced with traits(returnType) or the like.
>>>
>>> The fourth and final issue is template specialization.  This one
>>> really does have too much inertia to remove.  So what I propose for
>>> this is that is() -- now that it has the ability to perform just about
>>> everything that template specialization can -- should become the
>>> backend for template specializations.  That is, something like:
>>>
>>> template Foo(T, U : V[K], K, V)
>>> {
>>> ...
>>> }
>>>
>>> is just a shorter way of writing something like:
>>>
>>> template Foo(T, U) if(is(U : V[K]))
>>> {
>>> ...
>>> }
>>>
>>> I don't think template constraints currently introduce symbols into
>>> the template body, but this would declare V and K as types within the
>>> body of Foo.
>>>
>>> But here's the kicker: even is() is not an entirely basic construct.
>>> It's more or less a shortcut for more complex traits expressions
>>> combined with the ability to alias traits to symbols.  That is, "is(U
>>> : V[K])" is like the pseudocode "traits(isAssociativeArray, U) &&
>>> alias traits(itemType, U) V && alias traits(indexType, U) K".  Of
>>> course you can't put aliases in expressions, but the overall idea is
>>> that this is() expression is the same as using isAssociativeArray and
>>> then aliasing other traits as K and V.
>>>
>>> Why do this?  Simplicity, generality, and consistency.  Once all this
>>> is done, it becomes easy to see what questions can and can't be asked
>>> about your code.  You only have to look in one place: traits.
>>> Everything else is defined in terms of it.
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>> So what do you think?
>> I liked the way you wrote this. :-)
>>
>> I think neither __traits nor a property is good enough for compile-time
>> reflection. I think just one property is enough.
>>
>> For example in Java you do:
>>
>> someInstance.getClass()
>>
>> and then you enter "the reflection world", which uses the same language as
>> Java, but it's at a different level.
>>
>> So:
>>
>> var.reflect
>>
>> or something like that would be awesome. Then you can do:
>>
>> - something.reflect.methods
>> - something.reflect.isVirtual
>> - something.reflect.isAbstract
>> - something.reflect() // same as something.reflect.compileTimeValue
>> - something.reflect.fields
>> - etc.
>>
>> So you just don't allow "reflect" (or whatever) as a field name (if you
>> define it, it's an error, much like "sizeof"), but once you enter "reflect"
>> the compiler can add as many name as it wants, nobody can override these.
>> "reflect" is smart so that for an expression, it return a specific
>> (compile-time) type; for classes, another (compile-time) type; for
>> variables, another (compile-time) type; etc.
> 
> Or you could just call it traits.
> 
> something.traits.methods
> something.traits.max
> something.traits.sizeof
> (1+34.).traits.typeof
> 
> I do like the general idea of unifying this stuff.  Can you make an
> alias or variable of this .traits/.reflect type?  Can it return a
> metaclass type of some sort so that an alias would be possible?  I.e.
> alias t = something.traits;
> 
> --bb

I think that's an alias of an expression, and you can't do that. I was thinking maybe something.traits returns an instance of an object that is very well defined, but is only available at compile-time. So:

class C {
}

ClassTraits ct = C.traits;
MethodTrait[] methods = ct.methods;
etc.

ClassTraits can be something like a struct, or a class, or interface, it  doesn't matter, it doesn't have a run-time implementation, but it's defined in some std.traits module, but is "special" (the compiler knows what it is, so it can treat it differently).

Then you can defined functions over this traits:

bool hasFourMethods(ClassTraits ct) {
	return ct.methods.length == 4;
}

Since these are defined somewhere in the source code, they can participate in autocompletion, and make it much easier to write generic retrospective code.

But maybe this is too much... :-P

My idea is to use the same syntax for compile-time and run-time, so the user just has to learn one syntax. The user should know which things are compile-time only, and the compiler will help him by saying "No, I can't do that, you are treating this as run-time but it's only compile-time".

On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 15:11:38 +0300, Ary Borenszweig <ary@esperanto.org.ar> wrote:

> Bill Baxter wrote:
>> On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 11:48 AM, Ary Borenszweig <ary@esperanto.org.ar> wrote:
>>> Jarrett Billingsley escribió:
>>>> Once upon a time, D did not have string mixins, or CTFE, or templates,
>>>> or any of the fun things we have today.  Even so, it was still
>>>> important to be able to access some information about types.  So
>>>> Walter made it possible to query some basic information - the
>>>> initialization value, minimum and maximum allowable values, byte size
>>>> and alignment etc. - directly from the types as properties.  Neat.
>>>>
>>>> Then D got templates.  D's templates were based on C++'s, to an
>>>> extent, and therefore made use of specialization (and by corollary,
>>>> SFINAE) to determine which template to instantiate.  By their nature,
>>>> templates are a sort of way of introspecting types.  So now D has two
>>>> ways to find out things about types.  Okay.
>>>>
>>>> It turned out that templates were not always powerful enough - or
>>>> sufficiently concise - to express some ideas.  So Walter came up with
>>>> the is() expression (originally the "iftype" statement which begat
>>>> "is()" and "static if") to query other, more interesting information
>>>> about types.  It's _kind of_ like template specialization but has some
>>>> extra features that specialization doesn't.  Now D has three ways to
>>>> find out things about types.  Hm.
>>>>
>>>> Along comes D2, and with it, the __traits keyword.  __traits is
>>>> wonderful (except for the double-underscore name, anyway).  It's
>>>> extensible, flexible, and can answer queries about types and other
>>>> program objects in a way that would be extremely convoluted or cryptic
>>>> if templates or the is() expression were extended.
>>>>
>>>> But now D programs have _four_ ways to ask questions about themselves.
>>>>
>>>> Some of these methods overlap but with wildly different syntax.  Many
>>>> questions have to be composed out of these four disparate methods in
>>>> unintuitive manners.  Walter's "Templates Revisited" article says that
>>>> "[m]any useful aspects of C++ templates have been discovered rather
>>>> than designed," but in all honesty, this is exactly the situation with
>>>> D's compile-time introspection.  D's templates are better, yes, but
>>>> the problem has simply been promoted to a wider scope.
>>>>
>>>> So what can we do?  I've been thinking about it and I think that
>>>> __traits, coupled with the new template constraints, can handle just
>>>> about everything.  Does that mean we ditch all the other syntax?  Not
>>>> necessarily - it's just that __traits can be the _backend_ for many
>>>> other features.
>>>>
>>>> First of all __traits' name has to be revised.  The double-underscore
>>>> just isn't working for me.  I think it would be a fair tradeoff to
>>>> rename it "traits" and rename the std.traits and core.traits modules
>>>> something else.  Come on Walter, I know that adding keywords is
>>>> undesirable, but ffs, at some point _not_ adding keywords is just as
>>>> bad.  D does not have a very large user or codebase, and if you're
>>>> going to break backwards compatibility - _break it now_, before it's
>>>> too late.  (besides, some of the keyword mass will need to be
>>>> redistributed when imaginary/complex types are removed ;) )
>>>>
>>>> Secondly - the type properties are cute but they're not very flexible.
>>>>  They can interfere with fields and methods, and so the compiler has
>>>> to explicitly check that aggregate member names don't step on the
>>>> built-in property names.  I think that "T.prop" could just be replaced
>>>> with "traits(prop, T)".  traits(min, int), and so on.  Yes, it's
>>>> longer - but that's what templates are for, if you really want it
>>>> shorter: Min!(int).
>>>>
>>>> Third, the is() expression is greatly overstepping its bounds now that
>>>> traits is around.  Why is there "is(T == class)", but
>>>> __traits(isAssociativeArray, T)?  The is(T) form can be replaced by
>>>> __traits(compiles).  The is(T : U) form can be replaced by
>>>> traits(convertible).  The is(T == U) forms can all be replaced by
>>>> traits(equivalent) and traits(isClass) and the like.  The strange is(T
>>>> U), is(T U : V), is(T U == V) forms.. I'm not sure what to do about
>>>> those.  The ones like is(T U == return) are an obvious abuse and
>>>> should be replaced with traits(returnType) or the like.
>>>>
>>>> The fourth and final issue is template specialization.  This one
>>>> really does have too much inertia to remove.  So what I propose for
>>>> this is that is() -- now that it has the ability to perform just about
>>>> everything that template specialization can -- should become the
>>>> backend for template specializations.  That is, something like:
>>>>
>>>> template Foo(T, U : V[K], K, V)
>>>> {
>>>> ...
>>>> }
>>>>
>>>> is just a shorter way of writing something like:
>>>>
>>>> template Foo(T, U) if(is(U : V[K]))
>>>> {
>>>> ...
>>>> }
>>>>
>>>> I don't think template constraints currently introduce symbols into
>>>> the template body, but this would declare V and K as types within the
>>>> body of Foo.
>>>>
>>>> But here's the kicker: even is() is not an entirely basic construct.
>>>> It's more or less a shortcut for more complex traits expressions
>>>> combined with the ability to alias traits to symbols.  That is, "is(U
>>>> : V[K])" is like the pseudocode "traits(isAssociativeArray, U) &&
>>>> alias traits(itemType, U) V && alias traits(indexType, U) K".  Of
>>>> course you can't put aliases in expressions, but the overall idea is
>>>> that this is() expression is the same as using isAssociativeArray and
>>>> then aliasing other traits as K and V.
>>>>
>>>> Why do this?  Simplicity, generality, and consistency.  Once all this
>>>> is done, it becomes easy to see what questions can and can't be asked
>>>> about your code.  You only have to look in one place: traits.
>>>> Everything else is defined in terms of it.
>>>>
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> So what do you think?
>>> I liked the way you wrote this. :-)
>>>
>>> I think neither __traits nor a property is good enough for compile-time
>>> reflection. I think just one property is enough.
>>>
>>> For example in Java you do:
>>>
>>> someInstance.getClass()
>>>
>>> and then you enter "the reflection world", which uses the same language as
>>> Java, but it's at a different level.
>>>
>>> So:
>>>
>>> var.reflect
>>>
>>> or something like that would be awesome. Then you can do:
>>>
>>> - something.reflect.methods
>>> - something.reflect.isVirtual
>>> - something.reflect.isAbstract
>>> - something.reflect() // same as something.reflect.compileTimeValue
>>> - something.reflect.fields
>>> - etc.
>>>
>>> So you just don't allow "reflect" (or whatever) as a field name (if you
>>> define it, it's an error, much like "sizeof"), but once you enter "reflect"
>>> the compiler can add as many name as it wants, nobody can override these.
>>> "reflect" is smart so that for an expression, it return a specific
>>> (compile-time) type; for classes, another (compile-time) type; for
>>> variables, another (compile-time) type; etc.
>>  Or you could just call it traits.
>>  something.traits.methods
>> something.traits.max
>> something.traits.sizeof
>> (1+34.).traits.typeof
>>  I do like the general idea of unifying this stuff.  Can you make an
>> alias or variable of this .traits/.reflect type?  Can it return a
>> metaclass type of some sort so that an alias would be possible?  I.e.
>> alias t = something.traits;
>>  --bb
>
> I think that's an alias of an expression, and you can't do that. I was thinking maybe something.traits returns an instance of an object that is very well defined, but is only available at compile-time. So:
>
> class C {
> }
>
> ClassTraits ct = C.traits;
> MethodTrait[] methods = ct.methods;
> etc.
>
> ClassTraits can be something like a struct, or a class, or interface, it   doesn't matter, it doesn't have a run-time implementation, but it's defined in some std.traits module, but is "special" (the compiler knows what it is, so it can treat it differently).
>
> Then you can defined functions over this traits:
>
> bool hasFourMethods(ClassTraits ct) {
> 	return ct.methods.length == 4;
> }
>
> Since these are defined somewhere in the source code, they can participate in autocompletion, and make it much easier to write generic retrospective code.
>
> But maybe this is too much... :-P
>
> My idea is to use the same syntax for compile-time and run-time, so the user just has to learn one syntax. The user should know which things are compile-time only, and the compiler will help him by saying "No, I can't do that, you are treating this as run-time but it's only compile-time".

I agree, that's what it should always have been.

object.traits could be an instance of (std.typecons.)Tuple rather that some artificial inner struct. In either way, foreach over its elements should be available at CT.

Jarrett,

I agree with most of what you are saying, except for this:

"Jarrett Billingsley" wrote
> Secondly - the type properties are cute but they're not very flexible. They can interfere with fields and methods, and so the compiler has to explicitly check that aggregate member names don't step on the built-in property names.  I think that "T.prop" could just be replaced with "traits(prop, T)".  traits(min, int), and so on.  Yes, it's longer - but that's what templates are for, if you really want it shorter: Min!(int).

Ugh!  Can we just change traits to not use the functional style?

I like as others have suggested:

C.traits.isVirtualMethod(foo);

substitute traits for your favorite reflection keyword (how about traitsof?)

There is also one other benefit to min and max (and others) being first class properties.  You can mimic their behavior in user-defined types.  For example, if int.min is changed to traits(min, int) or even int.traits.min, then how do I define a similar 'minimum' for say, a time type, which would be totally arbitrary.

According to the spec, the only builtin properties that user defined types have are init, sizeof, alignof, mangleof, stringof.  With the exception of init, most of these are pretty uncommon member names.

I wouldn't mind moving init into traits (with the above syntax):

C.traits.init

The other properties are specific to the builtin types, and therefore cannot conflict with members.

-Steve

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 8:42 AM, Steven Schveighoffer <schveiguy@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Jarrett,
>
> I agree with most of what you are saying, except for this:
>
> "Jarrett Billingsley" wrote
>> Secondly - the type properties are cute but they're not very flexible. They can interfere with fields and methods, and so the compiler has to explicitly check that aggregate member names don't step on the built-in property names.  I think that "T.prop" could just be replaced with "traits(prop, T)".  traits(min, int), and so on.  Yes, it's longer - but that's what templates are for, if you really want it shorter: Min!(int).
>
> Ugh!  Can we just change traits to not use the functional style?
>
> I like as others have suggested:
>
> C.traits.isVirtualMethod(foo);
>
> substitute traits for your favorite reflection keyword (how about traitsof?)
>
> There is also one other benefit to min and max (and others) being first class properties.  You can mimic their behavior in user-defined types.  For example, if int.min is changed to traits(min, int) or even int.traits.min, then how do I define a similar 'minimum' for say, a time type, which would be totally arbitrary.
>
> According to the spec, the only builtin properties that user defined types have are init, sizeof, alignof, mangleof, stringof.  With the exception of init, most of these are pretty uncommon member names.
>
> I wouldn't mind moving init into traits (with the above syntax):
>
> C.traits.init
>
> The other properties are specific to the builtin types, and therefore cannot conflict with members.

Fair enough.

Also, I don't necessarily care about the syntax, just as long as it's unified ;)

On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 16:42:55 +0300, Steven Schveighoffer <schveiguy@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Jarrett,
>
> I agree with most of what you are saying, except for this:
>
> "Jarrett Billingsley" wrote
>> Secondly - the type properties are cute but they're not very flexible.
>> They can interfere with fields and methods, and so the compiler has
>> to explicitly check that aggregate member names don't step on the
>> built-in property names.  I think that "T.prop" could just be replaced
>> with "traits(prop, T)".  traits(min, int), and so on.  Yes, it's
>> longer - but that's what templates are for, if you really want it
>> shorter: Min!(int).
>
> Ugh!  Can we just change traits to not use the functional style?
>
> I like as others have suggested:
>
> C.traits.isVirtualMethod(foo);
>

What is foo in this context? If it is a function (C.foo) then I like "C.foo.traits.isVirtual" better, i.e. each member has its own set of traits:

class C
{
    int i;
    double d;
    void foo() {}
}

auto si = C.i.traits.offsetof;
auto di = C.d.traits.init;
auto fv = C.foo.traits.isVirtual;
auto fv2 = C.traits.methods[0].isVirtual;

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 3:56 AM, Aarti_pl <aarti@interia.pl> wrote:
> I completely agree that compile time introspection in D is very messy.
>
> There are some other problems with CT introspection, which I have explained
> in my post some time ago:
> http://www.digitalmars.com/webnews/newsgroups.php?art_group=digitalmars.D&article_id=77654
>
> In the same post I also proposed unified syntax for template specialization, static if, static assert and alias, while dropping completely is() expression for templates. Basically my proposal is about extending template pattern matching.
>
> You have touched few other areas which needs to be rethought. But I think that just using traits will not work very good. It will be too explicit e.g.
>
> Your proposal:
> static if(is(traits(isAssociativeArray, T))) {
>  traits(associativeArrayKeyType, K);
>  traits(associativeArrayValueType, V);
> }
>
> Compared to my proposal:
> static if (T V K : V[K]) {
>  //V and K is already defined here
> }
>
> Anyway merging these two proposals will improve situation significantly.

Ahh, nonono, I proposed keeping is() but only as syntactic sugar for
traits() magic.  So under my proposal one would be able to do:

static if(is(T : V[K], K, V))
{
   // V and K are defined here
}

Except that it would just be _implemented_ using traits.  :)

> BTW. I also hate underscores in keywords. :-P

They are the devil!

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 10:42 PM, Steven Schveighoffer <schveiguy@yahoo.com> wrote:
> There is also one other benefit to min and max (and others) being first class properties.  You can mimic their behavior in user-defined types.  For example, if int.min is changed to traits(min, int) or even int.traits.min, then how do I define a similar 'minimum' for say, a time type, which would be totally arbitrary.

Agreed.  Clearly we need a way to define custom traits info, too.  It could be done using some kind of  traits{...} block in a class, that contains only functions and members safe for compile use.

--bb

"Jarrett Billingsley" <jarrett.billingsley@gmail.com> wrote in message news:mailman.56.1227629961.22690.digitalmars-d@puremagic.com...
> On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 3:56 AM, Aarti_pl <aarti@interia.pl> wrote:
>> I completely agree that compile time introspection in D is very messy.
>>
>> There are some other problems with CT introspection, which I have
>> explained
>> in my post some time ago:
>> http://www.digitalmars.com/webnews/newsgroups.php?art_group=digitalmars.D&article_id=77654
>>
>> In the same post I also proposed unified syntax for template
>> specialization,
>> static if, static assert and alias, while dropping completely is()
>> expression for templates. Basically my proposal is about extending
>> template
>> pattern matching.
>>
>> You have touched few other areas which needs to be rethought. But I think that just using traits will not work very good. It will be too explicit e.g.
>>
>> Your proposal:
>> static if(is(traits(isAssociativeArray, T))) {
>>  traits(associativeArrayKeyType, K);
>>  traits(associativeArrayValueType, V);
>> }
>>
>> Compared to my proposal:
>> static if (T V K : V[K]) {
>>  //V and K is already defined here
>> }
>>
>> Anyway merging these two proposals will improve situation significantly.
>
> Ahh, nonono, I proposed keeping is() but only as syntactic sugar for
> traits() magic.  So under my proposal one would be able to do:
>
> static if(is(T : V[K], K, V))
> {
>   // V and K are defined here
> }
>

I think his "eliminate is()" proposal was about turning the above into something like this:

static if(T : V[K], K, V)

instead of eliminating what is() does.

> Except that it would just be _implemented_ using traits.  :)
>
>> BTW. I also hate underscores in keywords. :-P
>
> They are the devil!