On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 01:14:57 -0400
Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail@erdani.org> wrote:

> I'm back from OSCON 2012, where my talk has enjoyed a somewhat unexpected good reception (OSCON is not the most down-D's-alley audience).
> 
> The talk abstract is at http://www.oscon.com/oscon2012/public/schedule/detail/23888 and the slides are at http://www.slideshare.net/andreialexandrescu1/generic-programming-galore-using-d. There will be a video up some time in the future for the entire talk.
> 

Great stuff! It's a perfect way of explaining why D kicks so much ass.

Side note though: Seriously, no download with registration?!? WTF

> A small framework or simply a couple of standard
> library components that would make e.g. Vladimir's work (on
> forum.lang.org) or Adam Ruppe's work easy to assemble from
> preexisting parts would be just awesome.
> 

What do you mean by "make it easy to assemble Vladimir's and Adam's web libraries from preexisting parts"?

A couple months ago I had a little bit of free time and used it to work on a custom...uhh...*cough* "not-a-blog" system I've been putting together for myself. I used the combination of:

- Vibe.d's CGI library and HTTP server

- simendsjo's fork of Steve Teale's native MySQL library:
  https://github.com/simendsjo/mysqln/tree/misc-cleanups  (Actually, I
  think this is included in Vibe.d now?)

- Adam's HTML DOM (And I cached partial and full results in memory, of
  course, so I wasn't DOMming it up on every request)

It was working out BEAUTIFULLY for me, at least until I ran out of free time and had to leave it unfinished :(

On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 21:59:12 +0200
Alex Rønne Petersen <alex@lycus.org> wrote:

> On 21-07-2012 21:51, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
> > On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 09:47:06 -0400
> > Michel Fortin <michel.fortin@michelf.ca> wrote:
> >>
> >> And also, more and more it'd require ARM support to be competitive in the GUI area.
> >>
> >
> > Yes. But there's an even bigger reason for ARM: Mobile devices, like iOS and Android. I'm not personally a fan of them, but nonetheless those things are HUGE (no pun intended). And yet the ONLY real language choices there are C++, Java and Objective-C (and Lua if you count "Son-of-Flash", ie Corona - which I don't count). And half of THOSE are out of the question if you want cross platform, which any sane developer should. So PERFECT fertile ground for D.
> 
> ... and C# ;)
> 

Oh, yea. I assume you're referring to Unity, right?

> >
> > I know I keep harping on that, but it's a big issue for me since I'm
> > deep into that stuff now and goddamn do I wish I could be doing
> > it in D, but D's support on those devices (or just outputting C/C++)
> > unfortunately just isn't mature enough ATM.
> >
> 
> GDC is pretty far along as far as ARM support goes; I intend to have another run through it one of these days to look at any remaining issues.
> 

That is encouraging to hear :) What about druntime and phobos, though? And what about D feature set, is it up to 2.059?

I wonder if maybe I could somehow tell Marmalade's annoying proprietary build system to pass in some extra object files to the linker? I'll have to ask on their forums. Because maybe then I could compile some stuff with GDC and link it in.

On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 16:17:00 -0400
Nick Sabalausky <SeeWebsiteToContactMe@semitwist.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 01:14:57 -0400
> Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail@erdani.org> wrote:
> 
> > I'm back from OSCON 2012, where my talk has enjoyed a somewhat unexpected good reception (OSCON is not the most down-D's-alley audience).
> > 
> > The talk abstract is at
> > http://www.oscon.com/oscon2012/public/schedule/detail/23888 and the
> > slides are at
> > http://www.slideshare.net/andreialexandrescu1/generic-programming-galore-using-d.
> > There will be a video up some time in the future for the entire
> > talk.
> > 
> 
> Great stuff! It's a perfect way of explaining why D kicks so much ass.
> 
> Side note though: Seriously, no download with registration?!? WTF
> 

s/with/without/

On 21-07-2012 22:26, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 21:59:12 +0200
> Alex Rønne Petersen <alex@lycus.org> wrote:
>
>> On 21-07-2012 21:51, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
>>> On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 09:47:06 -0400
>>> Michel Fortin <michel.fortin@michelf.ca> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> And also, more and more it'd require ARM support to be competitive
>>>> in the GUI area.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes. But there's an even bigger reason for ARM: Mobile devices, like
>>> iOS and Android. I'm not personally a fan of them, but nonetheless
>>> those things are HUGE (no pun intended). And yet the ONLY real
>>> language choices there are C++, Java and Objective-C (and Lua if
>>> you count "Son-of-Flash", ie Corona - which I don't count). And
>>> half of THOSE are out of the question if you want cross platform,
>>> which any sane developer should. So PERFECT fertile ground for D.
>>
>> ... and C# ;)
>>
>
> Oh, yea. I assume you're referring to Unity, right?

Nah, more of a shameless plug: http://xamarin.com/

(I work for Xamarin ;))

>
>>>
>>> I know I keep harping on that, but it's a big issue for me since I'm
>>> deep into that stuff now and goddamn do I wish I could be doing
>>> it in D, but D's support on those devices (or just outputting C/C++)
>>> unfortunately just isn't mature enough ATM.
>>>
>>
>> GDC is pretty far along as far as ARM support goes; I intend to have
>> another run through it one of these days to look at any remaining
>> issues.
>>
>
> That is encouraging to hear :) What about druntime and phobos, though?
> And what about D feature set, is it up to 2.059?

GDC is up to DMD FE 2.059, so as far as the language goes, D on ARM should be up to date. Phobos should already build on ARM as-is (I sent some ARM patches upstream recently, too). druntime might need tweaking for some recent changes in in the threading/GC infrastructure, but I'll have to investigate further to see what the state is. I'll probably get around to that on Monday.

>
> I wonder if maybe I could somehow tell Marmalade's annoying proprietary
> build system to pass in some extra object files to the linker? I'll have
> to ask on their forums. Because maybe then I could compile some stuff
> with GDC and link it in.
>
>

-- 
Alex Rønne Petersen
alex@lycus.org
http://lycus.org

On Saturday, 21 July 2012 at 20:17:11 UTC, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
> - Adam's HTML DOM (And I cached partial and full results in memory, of course, so I wasn't DOMming it up on every request)

DOMing it up every request rox. That's what I do and so far
the impact of those have been negligible in the profiling.

On Saturday, 21 July 2012 at 16:45:20 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
> Would you agree if someone took your code, modified it for the purposes of passing it through the forks of the review process, and pushed it into Phobos?

Yes, no problem at all.

> You'd still receive credit, of course, but it would be shared with that person or group because that's significant work.

That's why I haven't done it myself yet! It is in a state
where it works for me and the phobos cost is just too high
in my current situation.

On 7/21/12 3:59 PM, Alex Rønne Petersen wrote:
> GDC is pretty far along as far as ARM support goes; I intend to have
> another run through it one of these days to look at any remaining issues.

That's awesome. I got a feel at OSCON that a combination of big iron + ARM-based small devices is the most popular combo going forward.

Andrei

On 7/21/12 4:17 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
> Side note though: Seriously, no download with registration?!? WTF

Crap. Didn't know, otherwise I might've chosen differently.

Andrei

On 7/21/12 4:17 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
> What do you mean by "make it easy to assemble Vladimir's and Adam's web
> libraries from preexisting parts"?

I mean putting much of their work in std, such that people can write their own Web/NNTP/CGI/etc stuff with much less code than they had to write.

> A couple months ago I had a little bit of free time and used it to work
> on a custom...uhh...*cough* "not-a-blog" system I've been putting
> together for myself. I used the combination of:
>
> - Vibe.d's CGI library and HTTP server
>
> - simendsjo's fork of Steve Teale's native MySQL library:
>    https://github.com/simendsjo/mysqln/tree/misc-cleanups  (Actually, I
>    think this is included in Vibe.d now?)
>
> - Adam's HTML DOM (And I cached partial and full results in memory, of
>    course, so I wasn't DOMming it up on every request)
>
> It was working out BEAUTIFULLY for me, at least until I ran out of
> free time and had to leave it unfinished :(

A feeling experienced by me all too often. My point is instead of having people buy these batteries, charging them by hand, and connecting them via diodes, to integrate the batteries with std.


Andrei

On Sat, 21 Jul 2012 14:41:05 +0200
Paulo Pinto <pjmlp@progtools.org> wrote:
> 
> Regarding systems programming, Go could actually play in the same league as D
[...]
> The trick with Oberon, which Go also uses, is to have a special module reckognised by the compiler with primitives to do the low tricks C offers. Additionaly any function/method without body can be implemented in Assembly. This is nothing new, Modula-2 already worked like this.
> 

If a language has to resort to such "outside-of-the-language" tricks like that to do system software, then it's just simply not a systems language.

If that meant Go^H^HIssue 9 could play in the same systems league as D, then scripting languages like Lua or JavaScript or even VBScript would qualify, too.