On 13 August 2014 12:15, Timothee Cour via Digitalmars-d-announce < digitalmars-d-announce@puremagic.com> wrote:

>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 11:11 AM, Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d-announce <digitalmars-d-announce@puremagic.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, 7 August 2014 at 17:05:29 UTC, Manu via Digitalmars-d-announce wrote:
>>
>>> I've never encountered anybody try and use MSC from the command line in about 15 years professionally.
>>>
>>
>> LOL. That's almost always how I use VS when I'm forced to use it at work. As soon as I figured out that I could build from the command line using VS, I stopped opening it unless I had to in order to run the debugger.
>>
>> But I'm not even vaguely a typical Windows developer. I'm pretty hardcore Linux, all things considered.
>>
>> - Jonathan M Davis
>>
>
> Likewise, when I had to use windows and VS (for visualD+other stuff), running from command line was the only way I could find to execute my scripts, set appropriate environment variables etc, without having to spend time every time something changed clicking through options (which is terrible in most IDEs including VS). Command line saves time every time you have to do a task more than once, administer different machines etc.
>

It sounds like there's a high chance you don't know how to use Visual Studio very well...

On 8/7/2014 1:05 PM, Manu via Digitalmars-d-announce wrote:
>
> I've never encountered anybody try and use MSC from the command line in
> about 15 years professionally.

I've tried to. When using Marmalade. Marmalade's mandatory build system is very closed-off and VS-integrated, so when I needed to include other stuff into my workflow (forget exactly why/what), I had to invoke from a script. And it worked *very* poorly.

The fact that so few people use VS from the cmd line could partly be *because* it works so poorly:

Ex 1: There's a lot of apple fans who have rationalized all sorts of limitations as "good", or at least acceptable, long as the apple didn't support them. Then the moment apple would offer it, suddenly it'd be hailed as the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Ex 2: Linux users rarely use GUI file managers. I love GUI file managers, but when I'm on Linux, I find even I do a lot more of my file management on the cmdline than I normally would. I do that *because* linux file managers tend to be pretty bad (esp the Nautilus-based ones IMO). So I'm not surprised other Linux users aren't really into GUI file managers either.

We could be seeing a similar thing here. Something is shunned as "bad" *because* that particular world's version of it is very poorly done or otherwise unavailable.

> That's what I mean about this culture; it's
> the opposite of linux, and it outright rejects practises that are
> linux-like.
>

While I don't doubt that's true of a lot of people in the industry, I have to question how much stubbornly clinging to ignorance can really count as a "culture". I'm tempted to claim that isn't culture at all, it's just pandemic pigheaded ignorance.

On Thursday, 14 August 2014 at 19:14:32 UTC, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
> On 8/7/2014 1:05 PM, Manu via Digitalmars-d-announce wrote:
>> That's what I mean about this culture; it's
>> the opposite of linux, and it outright rejects practises that are
>> linux-like.
>>
>
> While I don't doubt that's true of a lot of people in the industry, I have to question how much stubbornly clinging to ignorance can really count as a "culture". I'm tempted to claim that isn't culture at all, it's just pandemic pigheaded ignorance.

Somehow, I doubt that anyone claims that you pull your punches or that you don't speek your mind... :)

- Jonathan M Davis

On 15 August 2014 05:14, Nick Sabalausky via Digitalmars-d-announce < digitalmars-d-announce@puremagic.com> wrote:

> On 8/7/2014 1:05 PM, Manu via Digitalmars-d-announce wrote:
>
>>
>> I've never encountered anybody try and use MSC from the command line in about 15 years professionally.
>>
>
> I've tried to. When using Marmalade. Marmalade's mandatory build system is very closed-off and VS-integrated, so when I needed to include other stuff into my workflow (forget exactly why/what), I had to invoke from a script. And it worked *very* poorly.
>
> The fact that so few people use VS from the cmd line could partly be *because* it works so poorly:
>
> Ex 1: There's a lot of apple fans who have rationalized all sorts of limitations as "good", or at least acceptable, long as the apple didn't support them. Then the moment apple would offer it, suddenly it'd be hailed as the greatest thing since sliced bread.
>
> Ex 2: Linux users rarely use GUI file managers. I love GUI file managers, but when I'm on Linux, I find even I do a lot more of my file management on the cmdline than I normally would. I do that *because* linux file managers tend to be pretty bad (esp the Nautilus-based ones IMO). So I'm not surprised other Linux users aren't really into GUI file managers either.
>
> We could be seeing a similar thing here. Something is shunned as "bad" *because* that particular world's version of it is very poorly done or otherwise unavailable.
>
>
>  That's what I mean about this culture; it's
>> the opposite of linux, and it outright rejects practises that are linux-like.
>>
>>
> While I don't doubt that's true of a lot of people in the industry, I have to question how much stubbornly clinging to ignorance can really count as a "culture". I'm tempted to claim that isn't culture at all, it's just pandemic pigheaded ignorance.
>

It is what it is... I'm just making an argument for the importance of the
seamlessness of the download -> "hello world" experience. There's a large
number of developers who find this to be a sign of quality, and they will
pre-judge accordingly.
You won't win these people over by telling them the reality of their
condition ;)