On Wed, 2017-12-27 at 08:59 +0000, Dan Partelly via Digitalmars-d wrote:
> 
[…]
> I could not agree more with this. It is unfortunate D has dependencies on a garbage collector in language proper and in std.

Given the current situation, D's best route to traction is to embrace GC and ignore all complaints other than "give us a better GC". (*)

It is all about differentiation. Forget competing against C, C++, and
Rust. D is the   C++ inspired language with GC that isn't Go.

> […]

(*) "Better C" is a specialist use case for Walter and the D backend.
-- 
Russel.
==========================================
Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200
41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077
London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk

On Wed, 2017-12-27 at 14:06 +0000, Dan Partelly via Digitalmars-d wrote:
> 
[…]
> By comparison, D is young, and had the advantage it had no
> 
[…]

In the grand scheme of programming languages, D is old-ish. Bit this is not a problem per se.

--
Russel.
==========================================
Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200
41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077
London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk

On Wednesday, 27 December 2017 at 16:42:49 UTC, Russel Winder wrote:

> D wasn't an  option here due to lack of knowledge by the GStreamer crew.

That's another things I really don't understand...

/Paolo

On Wednesday, 27 December 2017 at 16:46:18 UTC, Russel Winder wrote:

> Given the current situation, D's best route to traction is to embrace GC and ignore all complaints other than "give us a better GC". (*)
>
I disagree strongly with this. Otherwise D won't have @nogc attributes, and functions like emplace for instance. GC is best to view as useful tool in certain situations that require it while other situations require manual memory management.

There no reason why D can't have the best of both worlds.

> It is all about differentiation. Forget competing against C, C++, and
> Rust. D is the   C++ inspired language with GC that isn't Go.
>

Competing in terms of what exactly?

On Wed, 2017-12-27 at 17:46 +0000, 12345swordy via Digitalmars-d wrote:
> 
[…]
> Competing in terms of what exactly?

Having enough people who give a #### that the programming language is
not simply a side show of history.

-- 
Russel.
==========================================
Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200
41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077
London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk

On Wed, 2017-12-27 at 16:50 +0000, Paolo Invernizzi via Digitalmars-d wrote:
> […]
> 
> That's another things I really don't understand...

The community know of C, obviously. They know of C++ and have consciously ignored it. They know of Rust and have embraced it. They have never heard of D.

-- 
Russel.
==========================================
Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200
41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077
London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk

On Wednesday, 27 December 2017 at 18:01:46 UTC, Russel Winder wrote:
> On Wed, 2017-12-27 at 16:50 +0000, Paolo Invernizzi via Digitalmars-d wrote:
>> […]
>> 
>> That's another things I really don't understand...
>
> The community know of C, obviously. They know of C++ and have consciously ignored it. They know of Rust and have embraced it. They have never heard of D.

I still think that's just a matter of doing well the homework.

If you are searching for alternatives to C, D is not so hidden, if alone I alone managed to find it, long ago...

/**
 * KickStart provides logic to upgrade\start\watchdog a target process.
 *
 * Author: Paolo Invernizzi
 * Date: Jun 26, 2006
 *
 * License: All rights are reserved. Reproduction or transmission in whole or
 * in part, in any form or by any means, electronic, mechanical or otherwise, is
 * prohibited without prior written permission of the copyright owner.
 *
 */
module kickstart.kickstart;

On Wednesday, 27 December 2017 at 16:46:18 UTC, Russel Winder wrote:
>
> It is all about differentiation. Forget competing against C, C++, and
> Rust. D is the   C++ inspired language with GC that isn't Go.

So what I hear is: if D wants a future embrace one personality only. Given current state of affairs, it should compete against the like of Java, C# and Eiffel. Embrace GC and forget anything like better C and competing against zero cost abstraction languages. For this to happen D must focus all its energy on implementation of a second to none GC.

This of course , has both sense and sensibility, but given that D has been unable to commit to one personality in it's life-spawn, how likely is to happen ?

Walter, what says you ? Where do you actually want to go with D ? What you and D foundation wants, not Russel or I or whatever else ?

On Wednesday, 27 December 2017 at 16:46:18 UTC, Russel Winder wrote:

>
> (*) "Better C" is a specialist use case for Walter and the D backend.

Also, if betterC is a specialist use case for Walter only, why does Walter call it "a game changer for D" ?

On Wednesday, 27 December 2017 at 18:23:37 UTC, Dan Partelly wrote:
> On Wednesday, 27 December 2017 at 16:46:18 UTC, Russel Winder wrote:
>>
>> It is all about differentiation. Forget competing against C, C++, and
>> Rust. D is the   C++ inspired language with GC that isn't Go.
>
> So what I hear is: if D wants a future embrace one personality only. Given current state of affairs, it should compete against the like of Java, C# and Eiffel. Embrace GC and forget anything like better C and competing against zero cost abstraction languages. For this to happen D must focus all its energy on implementation of a second to none GC.
>
> This of course , has both sense and sensibility, but given that D has been unable to commit to one personality in it's life-spawn, how likely is to happen ?
>
> Walter, what says you ? Where do you actually want to go with D ? What you and D foundation wants, not Russel or I or whatever else ?

'Competition is for losers', according to Peter Thiel.  It's completely the wrong mindset to succeed in a free society.  What you're supposed to do is create a monopoly that you earn and keep earning every day.  Economic quasi-rent, or pure profit, is the reward for noticing ways to better organise resources to serve customers needs in a way that others have overlooked.  (See the work of Israel Kirzner and Schumpeter).

D shouldn't compete against anything any more than it has tried to compete in the past.  The way to success is to listen to people who like what you are doing anyway and would like you to develop along the path of development that already exists and maybe are willing to encourage that in some way.  [Of course stealing useful ideas that fit what you are doing is always good, patent and IP law permitting].

If you do that, it becomes a ridiculous question to ask 'how are you differentiated from other languages; what is your edge?' because it's obvious to anyone with eyes and the willingness to study a bit what that is.

In my view, this is also good career advice I have taken myself and that I have found personally to be profitable, as well as the right way for a language to develop.

And it's what Walter has done anyway based on his long experience in flourishing as a one-man band in a market where Microsoft - with its very large resources - was then the dominant player.

People also continue to think and write as if the D Foundation has this inexhaustible fund of resources (pecuniary and people) that it can command to work on whatever Andrei and Walter think best.

It's open source!  It doesn't work like that.

If you want people to work on something, write a proof of concept and talk about it.  Talking to the aether about what people ought to be doing will be less effective than finding one guy who agrees with you and working on the project together.  And if not working on it yourself, then organising a fund and making an initial contribution towards a prize for someone who will.

And if one isn't willing either to work on something oneself, or to contribute financially towards its development, just how likely is it you will persuade somebody else to do the work in a community of highly intelligent, spirited, and independent-minded people?