On Tue, 2011-12-20 at 23:13 -0800, Isaac Gouy wrote:
> > From: Russel Winder <russel@russel.org.uk>
[...]
> > Actually I am surprised that Java does so well in this comparison due to its start-up time issues.
> 
> Perhaps the start-up time issues are less than you suppose.

Very possibly the case, I have only switched to Java 7 recently and haven't had time to assess start up or JIT kick in times.  Great strides in startup time have been made with each release of Java, at least on Linux, using mmap and preloaded runtime  infrastructure.

> The Help page shows 4 different measurement approaches for the Java program, and for these tiny tiny programs, with these workloads, the "excluding start-up" "Warmed" times really aren't much different from the usual times that include all the start-up costs -
> 
> http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/help.php#java

My experience is similar, that JIT warmup is only a small effect when using int and yet quite dramatic when using long.  This is to be expected though because a long is not an atomic type in the JVM but is two ints.

[...]
> Your "Groovy rewrite effort" didn't contribute a single program in 6 months !

In the interim Groovy had been ejected so there was no point.  No real need, and probably highly inappropriate to rehearse all the arguments here.  It's water under the bridge.  There is no no enthusiasm for getting back into the shootout since Groovy  is not a language for computationally intensive code, that is the realm of D, C, C++, Fortran, and sometimes Haskell.  If we want to progress this point we should do so on the Groovy lists, or privately, rather than here.

> > There is no point in a language development team running a benchmark.
> 
> 
> Tell that to the PyPy developers http://speed.pypy.org/

That is only a comparison of PyPy against CPython using the CPython benchmarks.  Those are internal Python benchmarks.  So yes very reasonable.

> 
> Tell that to Mike Pall http://luajit.org/performance_x86.html

An internal comparison of Lua engines.  Entirely reasonable.

> Tell that to the Go developers

Do you have a particular URL in mind?

My point though was that (and this is where Walter received so much
flak) where a language vendor tries to do comparisons with other
languages there are always claims of bias whether true or not.   In this
sense the Alioth Shootout has the benefit of being clearly independent
of any language vendor.  The examples above are not at all inconsistent
with my point.

-- 
Russel. ============================================================================= Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip: sip:russel.winder@ekiga.net 41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: russel@russel.org.uk London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder

> From: Russel Winder <russel@russel.org.uk>

> Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 1:43 AM
> Subject: Re: Java > Scala


>>  Your "Groovy rewrite effort" didn't contribute a single
> program in 6 months !
> 
> In the interim Groovy had been ejected so there was no point.

That is not true - Groovy had not been ejected.

Your 6 month failure to contribute a single program was a strong reason measurements were not made for Groovy programs on the new hardware following September 2009.


> If we want to progress this point we should do
> so on the Groovy lists, or privately, rather than here.

Don't send me email - I want nothing to do with you.

On Tue, 2011-12-20 at 10:31 -0800, Isaac Gouy wrote:
[...]
> Your words are clear - "... designed to show ...".
> 
> Your false accusation is about purpose and intention - you should take back that accusation.

As you have interpreted it, that is true.  I take back the accusation you have observed, it is not true.

-- 
Russel. ============================================================================= Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip: sip:russel.winder@ekiga.net 41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: russel@russel.org.uk London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder

On Wed, 2011-12-21 at 08:05 -0800, Isaac Gouy wrote:
[...]
> That is not true - Groovy had not been ejected.
> 
> Your 6 month failure to contribute a single program was a strong reason measurements were not made for Groovy programs on the new hardware following September 2009.

The lack of interest in the Groovy community for doing the work caused me to loose energy.  In the end the removal of Groovy from the Shootout was a shame but not really that big a deal.

[...]
> 
> Don't send me email - I want nothing to do with you.

Be that as it may, there *must* be no negative effect on the D, Python, or Groovy communities and their position within the Shootout.

-- 
Russel. ============================================================================= Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip: sip:russel.winder@ekiga.net 41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: russel@russel.org.uk London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder