On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 01:01:51AM +0100, F i L wrote:
> UTC, so wrote:
> >No one said you shouldn't use IDE or any other tool, but i don't think it is healthy to design a language with such assumptions. Walter himself was against this and stated why he doesn't like Java way of doing things, one of the reason was the language was relying on IDEs.
> 
> Well then I disagree with Walter on this as well. What's wrong with having a "standard" toolset in the same way you have standard libraries?

Um... dmd and phobos *are* the standard toolset.


> It's unrealistic to think people (at large) will be writing any sort of serious application outside of a modern IDE.

I do that at my day job, every single day. So do my other 300+ odd coworkers.

And it's not just a single application, it's an entire embedded system complete with an OS, system-level services, database, and GUI.


> I'm not saying it's Walters job to write IDE integration, only that the language design shouldn't cater to the smaller use-case scenario.

It's not a smaller use-case scenario at all.


> Cleaner code is easier to read

I write quite-clean code with a text editor every day.


> and, within an IDE with tooltips, makes little difference when looking at the hierarchy. If you want to be hard-core about it, no one is stopping you from explicitly qualifying each definition.

What if you have to deal with other people's code? Which I have to do as part of my job responsibilities, and which often counts for 80-90% of my actual day-to-day work.


On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 01:15:08AM +0100, F i L wrote:
> H. S. Teoh wrote:
> >>In all seriousness, I think you're decoupling inherently ingrained pieces: the language and it's tools. The same way you *need* syntax highlighting to distinguish structure,
> >
> >I don't.
> 
> wait... you don't even use Syntax Highlighting? Are you insane, you'll go blind!

I'll freely admit my eyesight is deteriorating, but if I'm insane then so are the other 300+ coworkers in my office, most of whom write code every single day with a text-editor on a Linux command-line. I'd like to believe I don't work in a mental institution. :-P


[...]
> >True, they have their value. I don't argue with that.
> >
> >But why should anyone be *forced* to use them? They're just tools.  A language is a language (a set of syntax and grammar rules with the associated semantics). It's not inherently tied to any tools.
> 
> The only reason Visual Studio being so closely tied to C#/VB/etc is a bad thing is because it's closed source and ultimately designed as [yet another] developer lock-in (just good business right?). Beyond that it's really silly not to use VS cause of all the productive features it provides.

It's not an option at my job, because the embedded system requires gcc to even compile properly. (Yes I hear the background screams about non portability. It's one of the perks of writing software for hardware that you make yourself. :-))


> MonoDevelop is catching up, but still quite a ways behind in some areas. No one is stopping anyone from writing code in Notepad.. but then, no one is stopping 3D artists from manually editing .obj files in Notepad either.
[...]

Ahh, no wonder you have such aversion to non-IDE development. Let me just say this, once: NotePad is not a real text editor.

You're absolutely right that if I, and my 300+ coworkers, have to use that nightmarish walking disaster called Notepad to write code, then we'd all have quit 10 years ago (or the company would've collapsed long ago from a non-working product).

When you have a *real* text editor at your disposal, writing code is actually on par, if not better, than development in an IDE. I'd like to think that it's only because I'm a weirdo who lived past my generation and still haven't moved on from the 70's, but the fact of the matter is that there are 300 of us here in this building right now who write code with VI every single day, 5 days a week. And I find it hard to believe that we're the only ones on earth doing this. :-)


T

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