On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 16:57:11 -0600
Andrei Alexandrescu <SeeWebsiteForEmail@erdani.org> wrote:

> It's difficult to work on something you don't believe in. Yes, we could keep D1 on artificial life support until we retire, but to what end?

None.

Nobody pays for D1 support...

I did use one of package managers on my Linux distro and one day the following appeared in the forums: "Hello xyz users. I just wanted you to know I am not going to work on foobar anymore...If you like foobar and want to keep it going start hacking on it..."

Iow, there was no 1-year-ahead announcement...and reaction from people were like: "Thanks for the heads-up and thanks for all the great work :-)"

So, let's leave people to work on that which they like to work on and that has future.


Sincerely,
Gour

-- 
When your intelligence has passed out of the dense forest of delusion, you shall become indifferent to all that has been heard and all that is to be heard.

http://atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810

On 2011-12-13 22:24, Walter Bright wrote:
> On 12/13/2011 12:52 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
>> On 2011-12-13 19:55, Walter Bright wrote:
>>> On 12/13/2011 9:47 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
>>>> If I recall correctly Walter has said he will continue to support D1
>>>> as long as
>>>> there are users.
>>>
>>> Yes, I did say that. For some time now, I've been releasing D1 betas and
>>> have not received any response to them. I haven't noticed new bug
>>> reports for D1. I haven't seen posts here about D1. I announced the D1
>>> 1.072 release a few days ago, and there wasn't a single comment on it.
>>
>> Yeah, I noticed that. I'm still using D1. I usually don't have time to
>> try all
>> beta versions or releases for that matter. Your making solid
>> improvements in
>> every release and I'm grateful for that. I apologize if I haven't
>> shown any
>> gratitude.
>
>
> It's not really about gratitude, but just letting me know that there's a
> point to doing those releases.

Then let me say: "I still use D1 for all my projects".

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg

On 2011-12-13 22:41, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
> On Tuesday, 13 December 2011 at 21:00:22 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
>> Well, I don't know. I don't think D2/Phobos is usable in its current
>> state.
>
> Regarding the language itself - your opinion is neither rational nor
> popular. For contrast, I think that D2 is more usable than D1 right now
> due to higher expressiveness and new language features catching more
> bugs before I have to waste any time hunting them.

Yeah more broken/unfinished features, and there are still features from D1 that don't work properly.

> One year is plenty of time to complete a D2 port of Tango. Also,
> remember the state of Phobos of one year ago. Apply the delta to now,
> what do you see?

I'm tried of waiting for something to be useable, I want something usable now and that is D1 and Tango. I don't feel like spending too much time in porting Tango to D2.

> Most importantly, you didn't answer why you will require *continued
> support* of D1 one year in the future, and how it would justify
> sacrificing progress elsewhere. I think that a one-year warning is very
> generous.

I probably don't need the support.

>> I think it's selfish to decide for the hole community.
>
> Wait, so you actually believe that a vote would go in your favor?

No. It's not so much about the result (because I know basically everyone would vote to discontinue the D1 support), it's more about the attitude and the way it's handled.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg

On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 21:52:59 +0100
Jacob Carlborg <doob@me.com> wrote:

> Yeah, I noticed that. I'm still using D1. I usually don't have time to try all beta versions or releases for that matter. Your making solid improvements in every release and I'm grateful for that.

> I apologize if I haven't shown any gratitude.

I'd say it's not just question of 'showing gratitude', but how many people are contributing fixes to D1?

Why would Walter be obliged to (mostly) single-handedly supported something he is not much interested in?

Compiler is free, everyone can contribute if they like...it's (almost) like in many other open-source projects...


Sincerely,
Gour


-- 
Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.

http://atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810

On 2011-12-14 00:03, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
> On 12/13/11 3:00 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
>> On 2011-12-13 20:24, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, 13 December 2011 at 17:47:30 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
>>>> If I recall correctly Walter has said he will continue to support D1
>>>> as long as there are users.
>>>
>>> Will you really be still using D1 one year from now? Even then, why
>>> would you need official ongoing support from DigitalMars so much?
>>
>> Well, I don't know. I don't think D2/Phobos is usable in its current
>> state.
>
> I think you're exaggerating a bit. At any rate, we sure know what to do
> to improve on that.

That's the problem, I'm tried of waiting. D1 and Tango is usable now.

>>> For some perspective: the move to GitHub was less than one year ago. I
>>> was actually surprised of this when I revisited D's history recently,
>>> since it felt like a lot longer. The relative amount of progress done in
>>> this year alone is staggering.
>>>
>>>> Apparently not, when Andrei really wants something he just decides
>>> without consulting the community.
>>>
>>> Sorry, but demanding that others spend their time to serve a minority
>>> when that time could be better spent to serve a majority seems rather
>>> selfish to me.
>>
>> I think it's selfish to decide for the hole community.
>
> Well the word "selfish" is not appropriate here because the decision
> does not bring me any benefit. Perhaps you meant "arrogant" or "conceited".
>
> I understand how you might see things that way, but please trust me on
> this one. It is the right thing do do, and the short-term difficulty
> will be greatly rewarded in the long run.

Probably, but as with the rest of the development of D2 everything happen to fast. TDPL was released without a compiler backing up all the features. Also no one knows what the correct behavior of a features is, what's in TDPL, what's in the compiler or what's in the spec.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg

On 2011-12-14 00:03, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
> On 12/13/11 3:00 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
>> I think it's selfish to decide for the hole community.
>
> Well the word "selfish" is not appropriate here because the decision
> does not bring me any benefit. Perhaps you meant "arrogant" or "conceited".

I don't know that you're trying to achieve but it seems you trying to erase D1 from the history, pretending it never happened.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg

On 12/13/2011 11:29 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
> Then let me say: "I still use D1 for all my projects".

I hear you. What can we do to make this work for you?

On Saturday, 10 December 2011 at 21:19:02 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>

With all respect to you Andrei, you had no input in D1, I thought that if D1 support will be ever dropped, Walter will announce it. Well...

In my humble opinion D1 community is still active. Assuming that nobody uses it is wrong.

Walter, thanks for good job on it! I will still stick to it for any serious project (non-hobby ones).

I wish you good luck with bringing D2 stable.

I just hope I will see such official news from you.

Best regards,
Damian Ziemba

On 12/13/2011 11:26 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
>> Look no further than Array in the dmd sources :-)
> That always made me wonder. Is that an array just used internally by DMD or
> something related to D arrays, or both?

Array predates usable C++ compilers.

On 12/13/2011 11:27 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
> On 2011-12-13 21:47, torhu wrote:
>> I'm still using DMD 1.061, since there are very few remaining serious
>> compiler bugs. The compiler has gotten pretty good, so the incentive to
>> upgrade is not very strong. And I rarely need to ask questions about D1,
>> since I've been using it for 5 years now.
>
> It's the same for me. But when I do ask questions everyone is surprised that I
> use D1.
>

Well, since torhu is using 1.061 and appears to be happy with it, it doesn't look like he needs continuing support.

Also, D1 isn't going to vanish in a puff of smoke. It'll still be there on github and on the web site.