On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 08:12:07PM +0000, Laeeth Isharc via Digitalmars-d wrote: [...]
> - better reference documentation.  I don't believe I lack the ability generally to figure things out, but the dlang.org library reference is far from being utterly clear if you don't start from a place of understanding the language and its concepts.  once you get the spirit of it, it all makes sense, but modern people don't tend to be distinguished by their grit and many will give up first.

Please file documentation enhancement bugs in bugzilla.  I do try to work on improving documentation when I have the time, but if nobody points out a possible improvement, I might never think of it (or it might take a long time before I notice it, esp. if I rarely use that module!). I'm sure others who browse bugzilla from time to time will also appreciate having documentation bugs to work on -- since they're generally the lowest-hanging fruit that even most newbies should be able to contribute to.


> - better worked examples.  python is outstanding for this.  you can figure out how to do anything by looking at someone else's example. of course there isn't presently the support for this, and I recognize that one attracts a different kind of person when it becomes easy to learn a language.  but such is the price of maturity.

Please file doc enhancement requests for these too. :-) A lot of Phobos documentation is unfortunately quite lacking in good examples. I've done a few of them, but generally, having a bugzilla issue for it is much better, because I may already know function X like the back of my hand and so never notice that the examples aren't that good, whereas if a newbie pointed out that the examples for X are unclear, then I'd know there's an issue and look into how to explain X better.


[...]
> - finally, a bit better organisation.  Andrei spoke about needing more lieutenants.  Of course it's a no-brainer that he shouldn't be spending his time designing a conference web site.  But perhaps you could make it clearer by adding a section on the D wiki front page: "Interested in supporting D?  Here's how you can help".  It could then take you to a page that breaks down different areas to work on and tasks to be accomplished on each of them.  Then someone with time and inclination can see "oh - it would be great to have someone promote this event on Reddit".  But as things stand, I imagine to a certain extent nobody knows what specifically they can do.
[...]

There's some preliminary info at:

	http://wiki.dlang.org/Get_involved

But it would be greatly appreciated if you could help improve it by adding more material. ;-)


T

-- 
"You are a very disagreeable person." "NO."

On Friday, 19 December 2014 at 00:21:06 UTC, H. S. Teoh via Digitalmars-d wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 at 08:12:07PM +0000, Laeeth Isharc via Digitalmars-d wrote:
> [...]
>> - better reference documentation.  I don't believe I lack the ability
>> generally to figure things out, but the dlang.org library reference is
>> far from being utterly clear if you don't start from a place of
>> understanding the language and its concepts.  once you get the spirit
>> of it, it all makes sense, but modern people don't tend to be
>> distinguished by their grit and many will give up first.
>
> Please file documentation enhancement bugs in bugzilla.  I do try to
> work on improving documentation when I have the time, but if nobody
> points out a possible improvement, I might never think of it (or it
> might take a long time before I notice it, esp. if I rarely use that
> module!). I'm sure others who browse bugzilla from time to time will
> also appreciate having documentation bugs to work on -- since they're
> generally the lowest-hanging fruit that even most newbies should be able
> to contribute to.
>
>
>> - better worked examples.  python is outstanding for this.  you can
>> figure out how to do anything by looking at someone else's example.
>> of course there isn't presently the support for this, and I recognize
>> that one attracts a different kind of person when it becomes easy to
>> learn a language.  but such is the price of maturity.
>
> Please file doc enhancement requests for these too. :-) A lot of Phobos
> documentation is unfortunately quite lacking in good examples. I've done
> a few of them, but generally, having a bugzilla issue for it is much
> better, because I may already know function X like the back of my hand
> and so never notice that the examples aren't that good, whereas if a
> newbie pointed out that the examples for X are unclear, then I'd know
> there's an issue and look into how to explain X better.
>
>
> [...]
>> - finally, a bit better organisation.  Andrei spoke about needing more
>> lieutenants.  Of course it's a no-brainer that he shouldn't be
>> spending his time designing a conference web site.  But perhaps you
>> could make it clearer by adding a section on the D wiki front page:
>> "Interested in supporting D?  Here's how you can help".  It could then
>> take you to a page that breaks down different areas to work on and
>> tasks to be accomplished on each of them.  Then someone with time and
>> inclination can see "oh - it would be great to have someone promote
>> this event on Reddit".  But as things stand, I imagine to a certain
>> extent nobody knows what specifically they can do.
> [...]
>
> There's some preliminary info at:
>
> 	http://wiki.dlang.org/Get_involved
>
> But it would be greatly appreciated if you could help improve it by
> adding more material. ;-)
>
>
> T

In case you'll have time/will to work on this in near future - resulted from previous "D docs suck" discussion (I'll probably do some of it eventually, but I'm unlikely to be free till summer):

https://issues.dlang.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13863

On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 01:11:02AM +0000, Kiith-Sa via Digitalmars-d wrote: [...]
> In case you'll have time/will to work on this in near future - resulted from previous "D docs suck" discussion (I'll probably do some of it eventually, but I'm unlikely to be free till summer):
> 
> https://issues.dlang.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13863

Oooh, that sounds like something I'm quite interested in, along the lines of:

	https://issues.dlang.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13676

However, I won't be able to get to this for about a week or so (at least). It's definitely something I'd want to see fixed, as it greatly degrades the quality of Phobos documentation.


T

-- 
I am Ohm of Borg. Resistance is voltage over current.

On 19/12/2014 10:22 a.m., Joseph Rushton Wakeling via Digitalmars-d wrote:
> On 18/12/14 14:07, Rikki Cattermole via Digitalmars-d wrote:
>> I'm in agreement that we need to start freezing the language.
>> E.g. in the next 6 months we will get x done. And no new features
>> other then
>> those chosen will be added.
>
> IMHO, it's important to demarcate well what is considered "done", but
> also to enthusiastically embrace breaking changes that improve the
> performance and reliability of the language.
>
> Well-defined and well-kept promises for what is stable, what is in
> development, and what is in the roadmap, matter more than just freezing
> things.  The fact that "problem X will never be fixed because of
> backwards compatibility" can be just as demotivating to uptake (if not
> more so) than "feature Y may change in the next release".

Basically you wrote exactly what I meant :)

On Thursday, 18 December 2014 at 21:39:49 UTC, Vic wrote:
> <snip>> We have :
>>> - a huge cemetery of D project
>
> + 1
>>> What to do:
>>>  - Stop to add new feature in D (new annotation or whatever is
>>> not an urgent needs)
>
> +1000.
>
> But this is not the culture of the creators. They think adding features is fun.
>
> Vic
> blog.apakau.com - company built on top of D in Silicon Valley
>
> <snip>

We need adding/chaging features because existing ones are not good enough for long term production usage. And yes, this is opinion from existing production user.

On actual plan of D development - I believe that if situation stays the same existing companies and core contributors will need to step up and take over management of the language at some point, based on some well-defined decision making protocol. Right language leadership is the bottleneck - and hardly backed by any implementation power.

This is purely my personal opinion (not Sociomantic) and I don't want really to put much into it until we are fully in D2 world but my opinion of established system is very pessimistic.

It is also sad that Andrei didn't manage to convince Facebook leadership to invest seriously into language development. It could have been very cost-efficient long term investment and game changer.

On Friday, 19 December 2014 at 07:39:25 UTC, Dicebot wrote:
> On Thursday, 18 December 2014 at 21:39:49 UTC, Vic wrote:
>> <snip>> We have :
>>>> - a huge cemetery of D project
>>
>> + 1
>>>> What to do:
>>>> - Stop to add new feature in D (new annotation or whatever is
>>>> not an urgent needs)
>>
>> +1000.
>>
>> But this is not the culture of the creators. They think adding features is fun.
>>
>> Vic
>> blog.apakau.com - company built on top of D in Silicon Valley
>>
>> <snip>
>
> We need adding/chaging features because existing ones are not good enough for long term production usage. And yes, this is opinion from existing production user.

+1 from another production user.

On 12/18/2014 1:39 PM, Vic wrote:
> But this is not the culture of the creators. They think adding features is fun.

I spent most of my time saying "no" to new features and trying to find ways to support things without adding features.

On Friday, 19 December 2014 at 10:04:34 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
> On 12/18/2014 1:39 PM, Vic wrote:
>> But this is not the culture of the creators. They think adding features is fun.
>
> I spent most of my time saying "no" to new features and trying to find ways to support things without adding features.

I think his point is that you haven't said "no" enough. ;) A tough job, but then BDFL doesn't come without its pains.

On 12/19/2014 8:39 PM, Joakim wrote:
>
> I think his point is that you haven't said "no" enough. ;)

Which obviously comes from a lack of any historical reference. If Vic had been around this community longer than he actually has, he never would have made such a remark. Walter's nickname should be Dr. No.