On Saturday, 27 June 2020 at 01:08:22 UTC, Clarice wrote:
> This is grossly off-topic.

Andrei has been instrumental in the development of Phobos, and he deserves a lot of credit for why Phobos is cool (the title of this thread). Thanking him for that is not grossly off-topic, unlike this answer.

— Bastiaan.

On Saturday, 27 June 2020 at 22:32:04 UTC, Bastiaan Veelo wrote:
> On Saturday, 27 June 2020 at 01:08:22 UTC, Clarice wrote:
>> This is grossly off-topic.
>
> Andrei has been instrumental in the development of Phobos, and he deserves a lot of credit for why Phobos is cool (the title of this thread). Thanking him for that is not grossly off-topic, unlike this answer.
>
> — Bastiaan.

I think there is a bit of miscommunication here. I'm reasonably sure of my understanding, so I'll speak on Clarice's behalf: he was responding to a post by Seb that appears to have since been removed (most likely due to it's off-topicness).

Jordan

On Saturday, 27 June 2020 at 23:30:25 UTC, Jordan Wilson wrote:
> I think there is a bit of miscommunication here. I'm reasonably sure of my understanding, so I'll speak on Clarice's behalf: he was responding to a post by Seb that appears to have since been removed (most likely due to it's off-topicness).
>
> Jordan

Ah, thanks for clearing that up. The tone as it appeared to me didn’t match Clarice’s earlier posts, so it really made me raise my eye brows. All good.

— Bastiaan.

On Saturday, 27 June 2020 at 20:29:22 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
> On 6/27/2020 5:07 AM, Avrina wrote:
>>> Many D community members have stepped up at their own initiative to become the leader of various parts.
>> Go ahead and list some. I already have a feeling I know what the trend is going to be like.
>

> Jacob does the Objective-C support.

He does also DWT.

On Saturday, 27 June 2020 at 20:29:22 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
> On 6/27/2020 5:07 AM, Avrina wrote:
>>> Many D community members have stepped up at their own initiative to become the leader of various parts.
>> Go ahead and list some. I already have a feeling I know what the trend is going to be like.
>
> Rainer does the Win64 and VS support. Brad Roberts initiated, built, and ran the test servers for many years. He did bugzilla too. Iain does GDC. The LDC team is entirely self-selected. Jacob does the Objective-C support. Vladimir wrote the Dforum software (and many other indispensable tools). And on and on for nearly every part of the D system.
>
> You want something to happen? Step up and make it happen.

Yes, someone definitely has to be uncharged. That's always true.

But what's your (DLF) role in this? Does it fall outside the vision of the foundation to participate and keep the fire burning in whatever way it can? Is there no coordination to solidify and unify all those efforts to ensure continuity? What happens when those people leave. What's the foundation doing about this?

On Saturday, 27 June 2020 at 20:29:22 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
> On 6/27/2020 5:07 AM, Avrina wrote:
>>> Many D community members have stepped up at their own initiative to become the leader of various parts.
>> Go ahead and list some. I already have a feeling I know what the trend is going to be like.
>
> Rainer does the Win64 and VS support. Brad Roberts initiated, built, and ran the test servers for many years. He did bugzilla too. Iain does GDC. The LDC team is entirely self-selected. Jacob does the Objective-C support. Vladimir wrote the Dforum software (and many other indispensable tools). And on and on for nearly every part of the D system.
>
> You want something to happen? Step up and make it happen.

The point is actually that some aspects of D should be taken care of directly by the DLF to guarantee continuity and stability. What if a contributor leaves the project? What are you gonna do then? Volunteers can work on libraries or interfaces to other languages, but there are essential parts that should have guaranteed LTS from the DLF. I'd say that first class LDC integration along with cross platform support should be one of the top priorities. You cannot just sit and wait till somebody steps up or hope that nobody drops out. That's gambling.

Also, if you rely on volunteers to do important work, the DLF might revise its approach to communicating with them. A lot of people have left over the way they were being treated and projects have been discontinued, and yet the DLF seems to shrug it off every time this happens instead of doing some introspection. (As a side note: it is of course ironic when members of the DLF complain about lack of support and gratitude, when they have no qualms about stonewalling enthusiastic contributors. Quelle ironie!)

Anyway, chances are that ARM will decide the fate of D.

On Saturday, 27 June 2020 at 20:29:22 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
> On 6/27/2020 5:07 AM, Avrina wrote:
>>> Many D community members have stepped up at their own initiative to become the leader of various parts.
>> Go ahead and list some. I already have a feeling I know what the trend is going to be like.
>
> Rainer does the Win64 and VS support. Brad Roberts initiated, built, and ran the test servers for many years. He did bugzilla too. Iain does GDC. The LDC team is entirely self-selected. Jacob does the Objective-C support. Vladimir wrote the Dforum software (and many other indispensable tools). And on and on for nearly every part of the D system.
>
> You want something to happen? Step up and make it happen.

There's only so much "stepping up" to make something happen can do. The changes that I think need to happen won't actually be put into place, in part because a package manager that is disjoint from the rest of the development can only do so much. A forum, a server, more servers, a bug tracker, miscellaneous tools, and an IDE plugin can all operate disjointly without a significant impact (for most of the cases) on the quality of the project. Part of the root of the problem with Dub lies with DMD. So simply having control to make decisions that would potentially cause breaking changes only of Dub isn't enough.

I guess you are a bit spoiled when it comes to having projects like LDC where someone did step up and took it upon themselves to create something that DMD wasn't able to provide. Not sure how well it would go, if for example they decided a DIP (like DIP1028) shouldn't be implemented and they simply strip it from LDC and reject the DIP themselves. Realistically I doubt this will happen, and that's in part because they aren't actually fully in control.

You care so little about Dub that you'd let just anyone take up the reins and do whatever they want with it. Including running it into the ground. The thing about individual projects is that they don't need Dub. I use a 100 line python script that does everything I need, I'm not going to waste my time with Dub. Just as DMD doesn't use dub (except for the library version). It's simply easier to not use it. No body is going to invest in something they can do themselves for much less effort while still being able to work on their own projects instead of having to shelf them to work on a package manager.

I think ultimately having past successes with having "someone step up" and do the work for you and thinking the same thing applies to and will work for Dub, is ultimately hurting Dub in the long run.

Well I'm done talking about Dub, maybe I'll link this post in 5-10 years and we'll see what's come of Dub and your wait and see approach to developing it.

#dub #fixdub #dub2028

On 6/28/2020 3:26 AM, Patrick Schluter wrote:
> On Saturday, 27 June 2020 at 20:29:22 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
>> Jacob does the Objective-C support.
> He does also DWT.

Yes. My list does not remotely cover everyone who has stepped up to take charge and make things happen.

On 6/28/2020 9:13 AM, Avrina wrote:
> I guess you are a bit spoiled
Please post with professional demeanor.

On Monday, 29 June 2020 at 04:49:39 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
> On 6/28/2020 9:13 AM, Avrina wrote:
>> I guess you are a bit spoiled
> Please post with professional demeanor.

Hello all,

This is my first post ever although I've an eye on the forum since quite some time.
I wanted to say this kind of destructive conversations is hurting the reputation of the language, deepen the feeling that the language is unsuccessful and turning newcomers off. The people behind this wonderful project deserve some gratitude and recognition.
That doesn't deny the fact that it, like any human endeavor, is subjected to incongruity and discordance, nevertheless, I think there should be another respectful tone in the conversations.

Thanks and have a good day.