On 2011-12-13 14:52, Don wrote:
> On 10.12.2011 22:19, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>> In order to increase focus and unity in the language, we are
>> discontinuing support for D1 on December 31, 2012. That's more than one
>> year away, which gives enough time to D1 users to migrate libraries and
>> applications to D2.
>
> I thought we had moved away from these kinds of unilateral decisions.
> I strongly oppose this decision. In particlar, I find the lack of
> community consulatation deplorable.

Apparently not, when Andrei really wants something he just decides without consulting the community.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg

On Tuesday, December 13, 2011 17:22:48 Jacob Carlborg wrote:
> On 2011-12-13 14:52, Don wrote:
> > On 10.12.2011 22:19, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
> >> In order to increase focus and unity in the language, we are
> >> discontinuing support for D1 on December 31, 2012. That's more than
> >> one
> >> year away, which gives enough time to D1 users to migrate libraries
> >> and
> >> applications to D2.
> > 
> > I thought we had moved away from these kinds of unilateral decisions. I strongly oppose this decision. In particlar, I find the lack of community consulatation deplorable.
> 
> Apparently not, when Andrei really wants something he just decides without consulting the community.

Well, he _did_ say that he and Walter discussed it, so it's not like Andrei is deciding this on his own. No, it was not a community decision, but our resident BDFL (Benevolent Dictator for Life) decided it, and he's the one in charge of the compiler.

Maybe they should have discussed it with us some first, but I'm not sure how much difference that would have ultimately made. Most of the D2 people would have been completely fine with it, if not welcomed it, whereas those who use only D1 would not only have been against it, but they probably wouldn't have been on this list to discuss it in the first place. It's only the people who use both which would have been around to complain about it.

Did any D1 user think that it was anything other than a matter of time before Walter stopped supporting D1? Sure, it might have been more than a year away, but it had to be coming eventually. The main question has been how long it would be until D2 is stable enough that there's essentially no reason to choose D1 over D2 except personal preference. It's getting close, and with this announcement, there's a whole year before D1 won't be officially supported anymore. There's a good chance that there's enough time for the remaining kinks which would make D1 better to choose than D2 to be ironed out. And if someone still wants to use D1 beyond that, they're welcome to. They just won't get any further fixes or releases from Water.

I don't know if Andrei and Walter went about this the right way or not, but it was coming eventually. And for that matter, when I first read Andrei's post, I thought that he meant the end of _this_ year, which would have been far worse for D1 users than _next_ year like he actually meant.

On the bright side for those who prefer D1 and Tango, this announcement comes after announcements about major work being done to port Tango to D2, since it's not only going to become easier to port D1 to D2, but you'll be able to use Tango in D2 if you want to (and without having to forgoe all of Phobos in the process, since they'll now work alongside each other).

- Jonathan M Davis

On 2011-12-13 17:53, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 13, 2011 17:22:48 Jacob Carlborg wrote:
>> On 2011-12-13 14:52, Don wrote:
>>> On 10.12.2011 22:19, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>>>> In order to increase focus and unity in the language, we are
>>>> discontinuing support for D1 on December 31, 2012. That's more than
>>>> one
>>>> year away, which gives enough time to D1 users to migrate libraries
>>>> and
>>>> applications to D2.
>>>
>>> I thought we had moved away from these kinds of unilateral decisions.
>>> I strongly oppose this decision. In particlar, I find the lack of
>>> community consulatation deplorable.
>>
>> Apparently not, when Andrei really wants something he just decides
>> without consulting the community.
>
> Well, he _did_ say that he and Walter discussed it, so it's not like Andrei is
> deciding this on his own. No, it was not a community decision, but our
> resident BDFL (Benevolent Dictator for Life) decided it, and he's the one in
> charge of the compiler.
>
> Maybe they should have discussed it with us some first, but I'm not sure how
> much difference that would have ultimately made. Most of the D2 people would
> have been completely fine with it, if not welcomed it, whereas those who use
> only D1 would not only have been against it, but they probably wouldn't have
> been on this list to discuss it in the first place. It's only the people who
> use both which would have been around to complain about it.

Exactly, and why do you think no D1 users are on this list?

> Did any D1 user think that it was anything other than a matter of time before
> Walter stopped supporting D1? Sure, it might have been more than a year away,
> but it had to be coming eventually. The main question has been how long it
> would be until D2 is stable enough that there's essentially no reason to
> choose D1 over D2 except personal preference. It's getting close, and with
> this announcement, there's a whole year before D1 won't be officially supported
> anymore. There's a good chance that there's enough time for the remaining
> kinks which would make D1 better to choose than D2 to be ironed out. And if
> someone still wants to use D1 beyond that, they're welcome to. They just won't
> get any further fixes or releases from Water.

If I recall correctly Walter has said he will continue to support D1 as long as there are users.

D2 is not stable enough, D1 still has problems that D2 has as well. I don't agree, D2 has in general been rushed too much and now there's a rush again.

> I don't know if Andrei and Walter went about this the right way or not, but it
> was coming eventually. And for that matter, when I first read Andrei's post, I
> thought that he meant the end of _this_ year, which would have been far worse
> for D1 users than _next_ year like he actually meant.
>
> On the bright side for those who prefer D1 and Tango, this announcement comes
> after announcements about major work being done to port Tango to D2, since
> it's not only going to become easier to port D1 to D2, but you'll be able to
> use Tango in D2 if you want to (and without having to forgoe all of Phobos in
> the process, since they'll now work alongside each other).
>
> - Jonathan M Davis

Yeah, I'm not having so much against the language (D2) itself, it's more Phobos I'm against.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg

On Tuesday, December 13, 2011 18:47:29 Jacob Carlborg wrote:
> On 2011-12-13 17:53, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
> > On Tuesday, December 13, 2011 17:22:48 Jacob Carlborg wrote:
> >> On 2011-12-13 14:52, Don wrote:
> >>> On 10.12.2011 22:19, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
> >>>> In order to increase focus and unity in the language, we are
> >>>> discontinuing support for D1 on December 31, 2012. That's more
> >>>> than
> >>>> one
> >>>> year away, which gives enough time to D1 users to migrate
> >>>> libraries
> >>>> and
> >>>> applications to D2.
> >>> 
> >>> I thought we had moved away from these kinds of unilateral
> >>> decisions.
> >>> I strongly oppose this decision. In particlar, I find the lack of
> >>> community consulatation deplorable.
> >> 
> >> Apparently not, when Andrei really wants something he just decides without consulting the community.
> > 
> > Well, he _did_ say that he and Walter discussed it, so it's not like Andrei is deciding this on his own. No, it was not a community decision, but our resident BDFL (Benevolent Dictator for Life) decided it, and he's the one in charge of the compiler.
> > 
> > Maybe they should have discussed it with us some first, but I'm not sure how much difference that would have ultimately made. Most of the D2 people would have been completely fine with it, if not welcomed it, whereas those who use only D1 would not only have been against it, but they probably wouldn't have been on this list to discuss it in the first place. It's only the people who use both which would have been around to complain about it.
> 
> Exactly, and why do you think no D1 users are on this list?

At least as far as people discussing anything, I don't think that there are very many people on this list who use only D1, because pretty much all of the discussions relate to D2. There's no discussion of D1 topics. So, while there may be D1-only users who lurk, or there are D1 people who discuss D2 here but never use it, I don't see how there could be much in the way of D1-only people in this list. Sure, there may be plenty of people who use both D1 and D2, but this list is quite D2-centric in general.

- Jonathan M Davis

On Tuesday, 13 December 2011 at 16:55:23 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
> On the bright side for those who prefer D1 and Tango, this announcement comes after announcements about major work being done to port Tango to D2, since it's not only going to become easier to port D1 to D2, but you'll be able to use Tango in D2 if you want to (and without having to forgoe all of Phobos in the process, since they'll now work alongside each other).
>
> - Jonathan M Davis

Has anyone actually tried using the D2 port of Tango for real work yet?  If so, is it usable?

Also, how do we explain to newbies about Tango as it relates to D2, without explaining the whole history?  How do we justify to them that its functionality now overlaps with Phobos?

dsimcha Wrote:
> Also, how do we explain to newbies about Tango as it relates to D2, without explaining the whole history?  How do we justify to them that its functionality now overlaps with Phobos?

Why would you have to explain it? Tango is just another third party library on D2, and third parties do their own implementations of a lot of things for a lot of reasons; it's not uncommon.

I'd just say don't draw any special attention to it and I don't think it will be a problem.

On Tuesday, December 13, 2011 19:10:39 dsimcha wrote:
> On Tuesday, 13 December 2011 at 16:55:23 UTC, Jonathan M Davis
> 
> wrote:
> > On the bright side for those who prefer D1 and Tango, this announcement comes after announcements about major work being done to port Tango to D2, since it's not only going to become easier to port D1 to D2, but you'll be able to use Tango in D2 if you want to (and without having to forgoe all of Phobos in the process, since they'll now work alongside each other).
> > 
> > - Jonathan M Davis
> 
> Has anyone actually tried using the D2 port of Tango for real work yet? If so, is it usable?

No idea. There were announcements and discussions related to it in the announce group. I don't know where it really stands though.

> Also, how do we explain to newbies about Tango as it relates to D2, without explaining the whole history? How do we justify to them that its functionality now overlaps with Phobos?

I'm not sure that we really need to. Tango is a 3rd party library which anyone is free to use if they want to, and at this point, the only code that is likely to be using it is code ported from D1. 3rd party libraries are free to implement whatever they want - even if it overlaps with the standard library.

If someone really wants to know the history of Tango, then we can explain it to them, but the only reasons that it generally comes up are either because of people who already knew about the split in D1 and asking about it and because of functionality that Phobos lacks but which Tango has. Time will fix the first part, and filling out and improving Phobos' functionality will fix the second. So, ultimately, Tango will just be another 3rd party library (albeit a large and solid one) which people can choose to use in their projects if they so desire.

- Jonathan M Davis

On 12/13/2011 9:47 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
> If I recall correctly Walter has said he will continue to support D1 as long as
> there are users.

Yes, I did say that. For some time now, I've been releasing D1 betas and have not received any response to them. I haven't noticed new bug reports for D1. I haven't seen posts here about D1. I announced the D1 1.072 release a few days ago, and there wasn't a single comment on it.

On Tuesday, 13 December 2011 at 17:47:30 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
> If I recall correctly Walter has said he will continue to support D1 as long as there are users.

Will you really be still using D1 one year from now? Even then, why would you need official ongoing support from DigitalMars so much?

For some perspective: the move to GitHub was less than one year ago. I was actually surprised of this when I revisited D's history recently, since it felt like a lot longer. The relative amount of progress done in this year alone is staggering.

> Apparently not, when Andrei really wants something he just decides
without consulting the community.

Sorry, but demanding that others spend their time to serve a minority when that time could be better spent to serve a majority seems rather selfish to me.

On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 10:55:35 -0800
Walter Bright <newshound2@digitalmars.com> wrote:

> On 12/13/2011 9:47 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
> > If I recall correctly Walter has said he will continue to support D1 as long as there are users.
> 
> Yes, I did say that. For some time now, I've been releasing D1 betas and have not received any response to them. I haven't noticed new bug reports for D1. I haven't seen posts here about D1. I announced the D1 1.072 release a few days ago, and there wasn't a single comment on it.
> 

Doesn't this just mean happy users? Which actually is still in support of the choice.

I'd definitely suggest D1 users voice which bugs they wish to see squashed in the next year.