On 12/20/2016 7:44 AM, bachmeier wrote:
> On Tuesday, 20 December 2016 at 11:52:05 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
>
>> If you don't want to fix anything, ok. But you can still file bugzilla issues
>> for things that you find.
>
> This is a valid point. I just did that for some std.datetime functions that need
> improved documentation.

Thank you. Many people look for things to help with, and this makes it easy for us to direct them to bugzilla to look for something they can do. It also helps ensure that issues don't scroll away on the n.g. and get lost.

On Tuesday, 20 December 2016 at 15:44:03 UTC, Dicebot wrote:
>
> I am really tired of this recurring bullshit of random guys coming up and acting as if they have any right to demand anything. You distract those few that are willing to do the work from focusing on it, you are not capable of saying anything not widely known and you have no desire to contribute yourself.
>
> My opinion? Fuck off.

It's a fair point, but people only know that all these rants have come up a million times if they've been following the newsgroup for a while.

It's the kind of thing where most forums have a read me that says something like, yes we already know about all these things and thread about them are considered spam.

On Tuesday, 20 December 2016 at 18:01:23 UTC, jmh530 wrote:
> It's a fair point, but people only know that all these rants have come up a million times if they've been following the newsgroup for a while.
>
> It's the kind of thing where most forums have a read me that says something like, yes we already know about all these things and thread about them are considered spam.

Seb just made a giant post listing all the things that could be done to help improve D, that could to be pinned somewhere so that everyone can see it. Maybe something like that should be made every time a new high-level vision is made, so that people know where and how they can focus their efforts.

On Tuesday, 20 December 2016 at 19:11:11 UTC, Chris M. wrote:
> Seb just made a giant post listing all the things that could be done to help improve D, that could to be pinned somewhere so that everyone can see it. Maybe something like that should be made every time a new high-level vision is made, so that people know where and how they can focus their efforts.

Well, maybe not so giant
Wish posts could be edited

On Tuesday, 20 December 2016 at 19:15:37 UTC, Chris M. wrote:
> On Tuesday, 20 December 2016 at 19:11:11 UTC, Chris M. wrote:
>> Seb just made a giant post listing all the things that could be done to help improve D, that could to be pinned somewhere so that everyone can see it. Maybe something like that should be made every time a new high-level vision is made, so that people know where and how they can focus their efforts.
>
> Well, maybe not so giant
> Wish posts could be edited

Remember that this is not a forum, it's a NG interface. Edition would mean that the email received could be potentially invalid and conversation would become confuse. If you're too ashamed by your errors, post an erratum...

On Monday, 19 December 2016 at 23:02:59 UTC, Benjiro wrote:
> I split this from the "Re: A betterC modular standard library?" topic because my response is will be too much off-topic but the whole thread is irking me the wrong way. I see some of the same argument coming up all the time, with a level of frequency.
>
> D has not market:
> -----------------
It has market, a broad one. Just like C++, depends on your use case.
>
> Go: Its is a "simple" language.
People are swayed by popular stuff.

> D is C++ but improved/simplified. Its not to hard to get into, its more easy for anybody from a C background.
True. Every guy I showed says that.

But setting up development environment for D is not a straight forward thing (Undocumented stuff, huge blocker for new users).

>
> Take it from a guy that spend a large part of his life in PHP. I feel more at home with D, then with all the other languages. The moment you get over a few hurdles, it becomes a very easy language. My point is that D does fit in a specific market. It fits in between C++ and scripting languages like PHP ( that has a more C background ).
IMO Walter/Andrea cannot do much about these stuff. "Car engineers are not the best riders".
>

> Its not going to convert a lot of C++ people. Sorry but its true. C++ has been evolving, the people who invested into C++ have very little advantage of going to D. The whole focus on C++ people marketing is simply wrong! Every time this gets mentioned in external forums, the language gets a pounding by people with the same argumentation. Why go for D when C++ 20xx version does it also.
Because most people here are working on proprietary/production code that has something to do with C/C++ or they were much into them before D. Requests/complains here are *mostly* either selfish or are assumptions on what they think will make D shine (of course, from their own head).

> Community:
> ----------

> But it feels like everybody is doing there own thing.
IMO, they do what will help their own workflow (what they get paid for). It makes sense.

However, the number of potentially helpful Dub packages is growing. But the incomplete/I-came-with-this-during-a-project packages are problematic. They are usually not well documented and do not tackle more use cases. This is bad for the ecosystem.

They should be marked as incomplete/not-to-be-inproved
>

> I see a lot of people arguing a lot about D and sorry to say
I think people argue on things they care about, directly or indirectly. I do too ;) Its good, as long as it's not selfish.

> Documentation:
> --------------
Documentation is a really hard/time consuming task to do. Unless we have a lot of hands on deck.

> I do not use it. Its such a mess to read with long paragraphs and a LOT of stuff not even documented. Like the whole C wrappers etc. My personal bible is simple: Google search for examples and Ali's book for some rare cases.
Yeah. Difficult to see this issue if you are too/very technical.
>

> Editor support:
> ---------------
>
Will help to specify what exactly is missing (linting?, easy debugging?).


> Future:
> --------
>
> You want D to have traction.
My little experience tells me the future is attributed to SO MANY factors.
>
> Walter / Andrei:
> ----------------
>
Hire Steve Jobs

> End Rant:
> ---------
>
GC is not a blocker for me. Most people complain about GC in D but thats for their use case. Don't speak for everyone or say D will NEVER gain traction (its only in your head).


Marketing Suggestion
----------------

Go for startups/students/newbies. So many startups are establish everyday. They don't have huge C/C++ code base.

On Tuesday, 20 December 2016 at 08:20:32 UTC, LiNbO3 wrote:
> On Tuesday, 20 December 2016 at 06:42:10 UTC, lobo wrote:
>> On Tuesday, 20 December 2016 at 04:38:03 UTC, Jerry wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, 20 December 2016 at 04:14:33 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>>>> On 12/19/2016 11:12 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>>>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>> https://issues.dlang.org/show_bug.cgi?id=16991
>>>
>>> Another issue onto the list of thousands, to collect dust for the next few years til someone decides they want to use their personal time to fix it. Just to highlight another problem, there's a lot of trivial to fix issues. Just maintenance really, like that one you posted. But there is no one going through fixing them. Well that one might end up getting fixed cause of the extra exposure.
>>
>> Maybe you could fix one or two? As you say they're trivial and apparently no one else is doing it.
>>
>> bye,
>> lobo
>
> And have the patch wait in the PR queue until the end of time, not even acknowledged at all ?
> The lack of focus goes hand in hand with the lack of manpower with some not-so-great results like we're seeing right now, at least IMO.

The perceived lack of focus is another matter, which I agree is disconcerting. I say perceived because I'm sure there is focus and a plan but it isn't visible from the outside. The core dev team seem to jump from one thing to the next with nothing going pushed thought the last 10% to completion so it all feels 90% complete.

bye,
lobo

On Monday, 19 December 2016 at 23:02:59 UTC, Benjiro wrote:
> I split this from the "Re: A betterC modular standard library?" topic because my response is will be too much off-topic but the whole thread is irking me the wrong way. I see some of the same argument coming up all the time, with a level of frequency.
>

Five stars of five!

Regards, Ozan

On Wednesday, 21 December 2016 at 07:47:08 UTC, O-N-S wrote:
> On Monday, 19 December 2016 at 23:02:59 UTC, Benjiro wrote:
>> I split this from the "Re: A betterC modular standard library?" topic because my response is will be too much off-topic but the whole thread is irking me the wrong way. I see some of the same argument coming up all the time, with a level of frequency.
>>
>
> Five stars of five!
>
> Regards, Ozan

Read all branche of topic. See ability to make social research.

Age'meter)))

Andrei,Walter > 45;
Benjiro,Dicebot 20-27;
others - difficult to say right now; need more time;

don't want to upset anyone, just a joke )))

On Wednesday, 21 December 2016 at 09:35:31 UTC, Andrey wrote:
> On Wednesday, 21 December 2016 at 07:47:08 UTC, O-N-S wrote:
>> On Monday, 19 December 2016 at 23:02:59 UTC, Benjiro wrote:
>>> I split this from the "Re: A betterC modular standard library?" topic because my response is will be too much off-topic but the whole thread is irking me the wrong way. I see some of the same argument coming up all the time, with a level of frequency.
>>>
>>
>> Five stars of five!
>>
>> Regards, Ozan
>
> Read all branche of topic. See ability to make social research.
>
> Age'meter)))
>
> Andrei,Walter > 45;
> Benjiro,Dicebot 20-27;
> others - difficult to say right now; need more time;
>
> don't want to upset anyone, just a joke )))

How do you use language is more important than your age. Scientist or AI developer expect highest performance for number-crunching and don't care about fast and easy development/deployment/etc. Devops (like me) don't care about super-performance, but care about easy development (read - libraries availabilty, easy debugging, etc) and deployment, gamedev probably care about GC and I don't know what else. Language core team can choose to care about every or only about some specific categories of developers.

And one note on volunteer model of language development - it have obvious pro and contra. how much this "contra" affect language progress depends on the language creators and community goals.