On Friday, 19 December 2014 at 07:37:45 UTC, Dicebot wrote:
> On Friday, 19 December 2014 at 07:25:20 UTC, ole wrote:
>> me too. it's really disgusting how you guys treat (verbally
>> mistreat) others, who take a chance with D.
>> Good luck to you all on your pet project.
>
> And how? Explaining mistakes and reasons why just taking a chance brings nothing (and can as well do a harm)?
>
> Chris point was overblown, sure, but so was original post.
>
> Manu has explained his case in great details and that was very good. However it was missing single most important part - explanation of what he wants to achieve, what actions he expects from community. So far it sounded like "hey guys I know you are nerds so go implement everything I need for my projects instead of working on yours". I'd be glad to be mistaken but it still looks like that so far.

i appreciate your try, but with ketmar and others a very special verbal abuse was introduced here. one thing is sure for me by now:
   NOBODY uses D for something serious and the reasons for that a plenty.

never the less - good luck.

On Friday, 19 December 2014 at 06:47:31 UTC, Manu via Digitalmars-d wrote:
> On 19 December 2014 at 00:55, Chris via Digitalmars-d
> <digitalmars-d@puremagic.com> wrote:
>> On Thursday, 18 December 2014 at 14:34:10 UTC, Manu via Digitalmars-d wrote:
>>
>> So to sum things up
>>
>> 1. you blindly walked into something you had no real experience with, apart
>> from some vague memory that some parts of vibed worked for you a while ago.
>>
>> 2. you knew the debugger might be an issue, if not _the_ issue, but chose
>> not to test it beforehand, or couldn't test it beforehand, because
>>
>> 3. you were working on a foreign framework (and simply hoped things would
>> work out fine, fingers crossed!).
>>
>> These are crucial bits of information that were missing from your first
>> report.
>>
>> Please try to be more accurate the next time. Holding back crucial
>> information gets us nowhere. It only leaves the (false) impression that D is
>> completely unusable.
>
> Fuck you guys.
> I'm done here.

"You guys"? Don't lump the rest of us in with one guy's ranting. What have the rest of us done to deserve a "fuck you"?

On 12/17/2014 12:30 AM, Manu via Digitalmars-d wrote:
> If vibe.d didn't crash, *or* if the debugger actually worked (such
> that we could have debugged the crash), then we would have surely
> stuck with that.
> But we couldn't get behind a solution that was impossible to debug.

I've debugged a lot of D code with no debugger at all (how else could I port it to various platforms like Win64?).

I've actually not found debuggers to be of much use other than telling me where the seg fault was and giving a stack trace.

On 12/18/2014 5:24 AM, Paolo Invernizzi wrote:
> Sadly, currently we have not a single minute to spare, contributing back to the
> D ecosystem, but I've more than a hope that we can change that in the near
> future... finger crossed...

Even little things help like filing bug reports or documentation improvement PR's.

On 12/18/2014 2:24 AM, Manu via Digitalmars-d wrote:
> Docs need to have examples which are plain and obvious, and the
> language will be absorbed by osmosis.

I agree. Can you point to specific cases that need an example?

On 12/18/2014 2:24 AM, Manu via Digitalmars-d wrote:
> People aren't allocated work time to read books.

This can't be generally true. Most people who attend programming conferences, for example, are attending on their employer's dime.

On Friday, 19 December 2014 at 07:37:45 UTC, Dicebot wrote:
> On Friday, 19 December 2014 at 07:25:20 UTC, ole wrote:
>> me too. it's really disgusting how you guys treat (verbally
>> mistreat) others, who take a chance with D.
>> Good luck to you all on your pet project.
>
> And how? Explaining mistakes and reasons why just taking a chance brings nothing (and can as well do a harm)?
>
> Chris point was overblown, sure, but so was original post.
>
> Manu has explained his case in great details and that was very good. However it was missing single most important part - explanation of what he wants to achieve, what actions he expects from community. So far it sounded like "hey guys I know you are nerds so go implement everything I need for my projects instead of working on yours". I'd be glad to be mistaken but it still looks like that so far.

+1

What D needs right now is for people to stop complaining about the things that are wrong and start contributing.

Cheers,
uri

On Friday, 19 December 2014 at 07:52:12 UTC, ole wrote:
> On Friday, 19 December 2014 at 07:37:45 UTC, Dicebot wrote:
>
> one thing is sure for me by now:
>    NOBODY uses D for something serious and the reasons for that a plenty.
>

You are plain wrong here.
---
Paolo

On Friday, 19 December 2014 at 09:52:09 UTC, uri wrote:
> On Friday, 19 December 2014 at 07:37:45 UTC, Dicebot wrote:
>> On Friday, 19 December 2014 at 07:25:20 UTC, ole wrote:
>>> me too. it's really disgusting how you guys treat (verbally
>>> mistreat) others, who take a chance with D.
>>> Good luck to you all on your pet project.
>>
>> And how? Explaining mistakes and reasons why just taking a chance brings nothing (and can as well do a harm)?
>>
>> Chris point was overblown, sure, but so was original post.
>>
>> Manu has explained his case in great details and that was very good. However it was missing single most important part - explanation of what he wants to achieve, what actions he expects from community. So far it sounded like "hey guys I know you are nerds so go implement everything I need for my projects instead of working on yours". I'd be glad to be mistaken but it still looks like that so far.
>
> +1
>
> What D needs right now is for people to stop complaining about the things that are wrong and start contributing.
>
> Cheers,
> uri

And if you don't have time to contribute then submit an ER or bug report. Even that will be more constructive than having a pubilc tantrum when others disagree.

A bit embarrassing I'd say.


Cheers,
uri

On Friday, 19 December 2014 at 08:57:56 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
> I've debugged a lot of D code with no debugger at all (how else could I port it to various platforms like Win64?).
>
> I've actually not found debuggers to be of much use other than telling me where the seg fault was and giving a stack trace.

I think the most valuable point Manu made is that there are "excellent" and "good" programmers. The difference is not so much in the actual skills, but in the willing to spend time on programming.

"Excellent programmers" spend a great amount of time learning things. It takes a huge part of their free time and it really takes a lot of passion and diligence. But most of the professional programmers are simply "good". They code at work and that's it. They don't spend any time beyond that on programming and, especially, learning new things.

If we're speaking about "excellent programmers" category, then almost everything about D is already good enough for these people. You can tell it by a number of truly fascinating D projects.

And it looks like the guys who work on D are mostly "excellent programmers", which speak pretty different language compared to the "good programmers". Probably, this is the main cause of misunderstanding.

In the "debugger" case, Manu's point is that it's unusable. And Walter's implied point is "debuggers aren't that useful anyway, so why it was a showstopper?".

My personal observation is that "excellent programmers" share the Walter's point on debuggers - they practically don't use it. And the uselessness is so obvious, that there's nothing even to talk about. At the same time, "good programmers" use it extensively, especially on Windows. It is so useful to them, that there's nothing even to talk about!

So, Manu speaks from the "good programmer" position, and Walter speaks from the "excellent programmer" position, implying "if you'd become a better programmer, you wouldn't have no problems using D".

This implication is mostly true. But it's orthogonal to Manu's point - "good programmers" have troubles using D.

The probable solution to this is to attract some "good" programmers to point out and work on the aforementioned issues - site, documentation, tooling, etc. But I'm not sure it's possible to do this for D with volunteer efforts.