On 3/31/15 1:19 AM, Laeeth Isharc wrote:
> On Tuesday, 31 March 2015 at 02:05:05 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>> On 3/30/15 12:29 AM, Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d-announce wrote:
>>> On Saturday, March 28, 2015 14:19:46 Walter Bright via
>>> Digitalmars-d-announce wrote:
>>>> Thank you. I need to learn std.algorithm better.
>>>
>>> Don't we all. Part of the problem with std.algorithm is its power. It's
>>> frequently the case that you think that something isn't there when it's
>>> either there under a different name, or you just have to look at one
>>> of its
>>> functions from a different angle to use it for what you're trying to
>>> do. It
>>> wouldn't surprise me at all if folks who know it quite well get
>>> surprised by
>>> what it can do at least from time to time.
>>
>> Then we need more examples and tutorials. -- Andrei
>
> how are these to appear?

I've offered a number of times to write a slides-like tutorial if anyone wants to do the slides logic. Nobody came about. Probably nobody will, so I'll have to do it myself.

It's also disheartening that people in our community say "Except for one function, std.algorithm does not allocate memory", or "RefCounted works with classes, it just hasn't been implemented yet", however nobody actually fixes these things (not to mention "file reading by line is slow" which has been fixed after having been wrongly characterized as a fundamental cstdlib issue). This has been going on for YEARS. Only a handful of contributors actually do such work, a lot of which is trivial; everybody else seems content to just talk about it and wait for handouts.

We need to do better at empowering people.


Andrei

>Java programmers are having to come to terms with this. Python programmers sort of have, except that BDFL has failed to accept the correct end point and still likes loops. Scala has done it all wrong. (Further opinions available on request :-)

Could you provide some sample Scala code to demonstrate what you mean? Just because it is not clear to me what this is about. Thanks.

On Tuesday, 31 March 2015 at 08:35:47 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
> I've offered a number of times to write a slides-like tutorial if anyone wants to do the slides logic. Nobody came about. Probably nobody will, so I'll have to do it myself.

What do you mean by "slides logic"? What are you aiming for? (I missed your earlier posts on that, sorry.)

In any case, if this is a "you do the content, someone else does the mundane" kind of offer, I am all ears. I'd like to help, I'd like to learn and I am not able to do the content myself.

On Tue, 31 Mar 2015 01:35:47 -0700, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

> We need to do better at empowering people.

it's fairly easy: just pay them for the tasks.

most people using D to solve *their* task at hand, and if they see something wrong, they report it as an issue (sometimes) and go on with their task, designing workarounds. there is no way you can force people to drop their tasks and do something different. only sometimes, when they continuously hit by something in Phobos, they writing patches. yet that patches will not be widely available until the next compiler release, which means that if people plan to publish their code, they *have* to write workarounds anyway. and if there is workaround written, there is less motivation to write a patch that fixes the thing.

for GNU/Linux everything is even worse, as DMD cannot be included in repositories as free software (it isn't), so we have GDC/LDC, which are much slower with releases, and much slower with repo updates.

what *can* help here is free DMD (in FSF definition) and monthly releases. this is not a silver bullet, but it's easier to convince maintainers of various distributives to work on free compiler.

>>> Then we need more examples and tutorials. -- Andrei
>>
>> how are these to appear?
>
> I've offered a number of times to write a slides-like tutorial if anyone wants to do the slides logic. Nobody came about. Probably nobody will, so I'll have to do it myself.

Sorry for my denseness, but what is 'slides logic'?

What I had in mind was that big projects that are not
intrinsically gratifying can be too much to undertake in one
bite.  So how about we just agree something like 'email p0nce'
(if he is willing - he seems to be good at it) when one comes
across something cool - like a way to make use of std.algorithm
(as several people have mentioned keeps happening) so he can
collect them and write them up when there is time.  Or someone
else, if p0nce cannot or does not wish to do it.

I bet that one could find quite a few useful examples just
grepping thru one's own code/searching on github.

> It's also disheartening that people in our community say "Except for one function, std.algorithm does not allocate memory"
Umm that was me...  I don't feel confident enough to write at a
Phobos standard yet and might be a little while before I am
experienced enough.  But I see your point.

I reckon people do want to help, but don't know how.  If I do a
search for priorities on the wiki, only the roadmap comes up.

I started this page as a placeholder:
http://wiki.dlang.org/How_You_Can_Help


Laeeth.

On 3/31/15 3:40 AM, Laeeth Isharc wrote:
>>>> Then we need more examples and tutorials. -- Andrei
>>>
>>> how are these to appear?
>>
>> I've offered a number of times to write a slides-like tutorial if
>> anyone wants to do the slides logic. Nobody came about. Probably
>> nobody will, so I'll have to do it myself.
>
> Sorry for my denseness, but what is 'slides logic'?

E.g. http://tour.golang.org/welcome/1

> What I had in mind was that big projects that are not
> intrinsically gratifying can be too much to undertake in one
> bite.  So how about we just agree something like 'email p0nce'
> (if he is willing - he seems to be good at it) when one comes
> across something cool - like a way to make use of std.algorithm
> (as several people have mentioned keeps happening) so he can
> collect them and write them up when there is time.  Or someone
> else, if p0nce cannot or does not wish to do it.
>
> I bet that one could find quite a few useful examples just
> grepping thru one's own code/searching on github.
>
>> It's also disheartening that people in our community say "Except for
>> one function, std.algorithm does not allocate memory"
> Umm that was me...  I don't feel confident enough to write at a
> Phobos standard yet and might be a little while before I am
> experienced enough.  But I see your point.

No worries, it's the pattern not the person. Walter mentioned that as well. It gets mentioned often.

> I reckon people do want to help, but don't know how.  If I do a
> search for priorities on the wiki, only the roadmap comes up.
>
> I started this page as a placeholder:
> http://wiki.dlang.org/How_You_Can_Help

Great, thanks!


Andrei

> Umm that was me...  I don't feel confident enough to write at a
> Phobos standard yet and might be a little while before I am
> experienced enough.  But I see your point.

Fastest way to get better is to submit PRs and get reviewed.