On Thursday, 11 September 2014 at 12:26:39 UTC, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:
> On Monday, 8 September 2014 at 23:31:49 UTC, Dicebot wrote:
>> And there are no NG rules that say I shouldn't write some off-topic bullshit in your threads. Also clearly the only reason why we don't casually walk around shooting people is because laws prohibit doing so, otherwise it is perfectly reasonable thing to do.
>
> Listen to me, and listen carefully. If you want to challenge me verbally, please don't put your head on the chopping block. A verbal fight where you put yourself up for verbal annihilation is just no fun!

Looks like you have forgotten to use the "Listen, kid," approach. Would fit the theme and make your point so much more convincing.

> I truly believe you when you claim that you are a people's person and that the community is more important to you than the product/license. Unfortunately you completely undermine your "people over license" argument by using abusive techniques that are usually tied to brainwashed people-unfriendly cultists. Techniques such as: trying to silence members by pointing out their lack of worth, threatening by shunning and resorting to ridicule.

Quite the opposite to most people I hold few sympathies for any specific personalities, only for communities in general. I believe in self-organizing systems and sometimes being loud and abusive is simply a best way to ensure the point being noted and remembered. The fact that this discussion still continues despite my absence in NG for some time is a good indicator of success.

Community is important but community can be a bitch. Or some specific personalities in the community (I am not reluctant at all to take such role when needed). This is most important thing to remember when doing any open-source development with no clear organization - despite the fact that you comply to all licences/laws someone still can hate you (and also comply all the licences/laws!).

There are pretty much only two options:
- stop caring about such opinions (and being surprised when getting some load of abusive speech in return)
- stop appealing to license/laws as the reason why you shouldn't be hated

Neither of those annoys me. Obligation to be nice to someone simply because of the licence compliance however does make me angry.

> I don't hold the view that the D community is more valuable than the product/license. The community is valuable, but the end product is more important and the community has to fully back the license and not undermine it.

Nothing I have said is against the license or undermines it in any way. You won't be ever sued for your actions. I won't even kill your kitten because of that. Only thing that changes is my personal attitude (which has nothing in common with "D development team" attitude by the way). It only becomes restriction if you chose to care.

This is the beauty of decentralized systems/societies - implicit regulation without any formal rules.

> I am not here to increase my self worth, though I don't mind an educated argument or a role playing stunt, I am here to increase the probability of having a programming language that is better than the alternatives for server programming within a few years. With the current situation it will take another decade.

Sorry but I don't see you helping right now. NG debates don't make any real differences - all D community members I respect have some specific projects and/or contributions that make them important. You can call that meritocratic and arrogant but I am here for a similar reason - get a good language I can use personally. Anything that does not get upstream is simply of no value to me.

> You appear to think that management == control. You come through as a control freak, but I could be wrong.

You totally miss the point. For most time I ignore any kind of centralized management at all. Instead I rely on being aware of community "trends" to find opportunities for most pragmatical contributions that benefit both me and someone else. This is certain kind of implicit public contract - be nice and useful and you will get that in returns. The fact that it is never specified in any kind of licence or rule list does not mean it doesn't work that way in practice.

> For the D community to grow it has to play up to and appreciate diversity and conflicting goals among the members. That means you have to appreciate that people are participating for reasons you don't share and have other goals than yourself.

Unless those goals seem to do more harm to _my_ goals than any possible contributions can do good. Then escalating the conflict is simply the most efficient outcome.

> What you are saying is basically that you disagree with the license, so maybe Walter should have spent more time making sure that he had backing for it in the community, but that is an issue you have to take up with him. Not me or ketmar.

You have a funny understanding of Boost/MIT license concept. It is both funny and worrying in a sense that people seem to misinterpret concept of personal freedoms in a similar way. There is nothing in the license that forbids me to rage at you as much as there is nothing that prevents you from increasing the fragmentation.

I wonder if there actually exists the licence that requires any user of the software to be polite with any other use of the software. Could be fun but. Most likely to be legally negligible though.

On Wednesday, 17 September 2014 at 17:37:04 UTC, Dicebot wrote:
> Unless those goals seem to do more harm to _my_ goals than any possible contributions can do good. Then escalating the conflict is simply the most efficient outcome.

Ok, but I am used to that. I grew up on Usenet at it's worst. I am not worried about me, but about coming down to hard on you with counter measures.

If people go to far all they will achieve is that I switch into satirical roleplay, and that's not a game anyone can win since I will then cease to be me and blur the border between reality and fantasy. I'll try to avoid that in this context though, but it is fun, if you are into RP… It is really up to you. ;)

Anyway, I appreciate that you are honest and don't hide your feelings. I prefer that over the alternative. :-)