On 21-04-2012 09:18, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
> "Paulo Pinto"<pjmlp@progtools.org>  wrote in message
> news:pgxiucaflhldzhfmgipl@forum.dlang.org...
>> Just noticed that Microsoft is planning to start using C# for systems
>> programming as well
>>
>> https://careers.microsoft.com/jobdetails.aspx?jid=76831
>>
>> Who knows what they are planning to do...
>>
>
> Between that and turning JS into desktop language for Win8, isn't their plan
> obvious? They plan to increase bloat!
>
> The optimizations in Win7 were just an accidental result of an email glitch
> that blocked communication between the managers and developers. They aim to
> rectify that oversight as...efficiently...as possible: Hence, VM for systems
> work and JS for apps.
>
> The only reason they didn't go with JS as their new systems language is
> because that requires more work, so it's delayed until Win9.
>
> ....Either that or their HR drones screwed up the job posting, which based on
> my experience with HR people seems entirely plausible. They probably got
> confused by all the many, many "buttons" on their keyboards.
>
>

Er, that job posting did say "native *ahead-of-time*" compilers. I.e. no VM.

-- 
- Alex

On Friday, 20 April 2012 at 18:11:45 UTC, SomeDude wrote:
>
> Through the Java Community Process (http://jcp.org). Basically, it's where the proposals for APIs are reviewed. It started after many people found that the Sun APIs sucked (basically, Sun didn't have the manpower to follow all the requests of their users) and founded the Apache and Spring projects to compensate for some missing parts (the logging API for instance).
> Afterwards, key developers of those open source projects became active part of the JCP, and companies followed.
>
Rereading this paragraph, I find this is somewhat inaccurate. Sun AFAIK has nothing to do with Apache and Spring, and the JCP started before these open source projects. What I wanted to stress though, was that many important and successful APIs have been developed after open source developments, and were designed by members of these communities (several of which were employed by big companies afterwards). An example being the "Enterprise JavaBeans", which were enterprise crap when designed by Sun (EJB1 and EJB2), and they finally got it right after the lead developer of the Hibernate project came onboard.

On Friday, 20 April 2012 at 12:30:19 UTC, SomeDude wrote:

> What I don't get is why no large software company is backing up D right now. It's quite clear by now that D is by far the language that has the best feature set to be the successor to C++.

Answer is i think quite simple. How many C++ developers do you think use templates more than like "<T>min(Ta){ reuturn a<b?a:b }"? I don't believe it is more than 5%. We first need to show how powerfull and accessible templates/ctfe in D. We need to stop saying "D does templates better than C++". This is huge underestimation. By stating it this way we are just targetting like 1% of the C++ audience. We need to teach people how to do templates. Starting with Boost community. If D can't absorb Boost community. There is no hope in neither D nor Boost, we should just stop!

> If IBM for example was helping D like they did for eclipse, the traction would be huge and the toolchain would stabilize so much faster. :(

"Alex Rønne Petersen" <xtzgzorex@gmail.com> wrote in message news:jmtolu$1e25$1@digitalmars.com...
> On 21-04-2012 09:18, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
>> "Paulo Pinto"<pjmlp@progtools.org>  wrote in message news:pgxiucaflhldzhfmgipl@forum.dlang.org...
>>> Just noticed that Microsoft is planning to start using C# for systems programming as well
>>>
>>> https://careers.microsoft.com/jobdetails.aspx?jid=76831
>>>
>>> Who knows what they are planning to do...
>>>
>>
>> Between that and turning JS into desktop language for Win8, isn't their
>> plan
>> obvious? They plan to increase bloat!
>>
>> The optimizations in Win7 were just an accidental result of an email
>> glitch
>> that blocked communication between the managers and developers. They aim
>> to
>> rectify that oversight as...efficiently...as possible: Hence, VM for
>> systems
>> work and JS for apps.
>>
>> The only reason they didn't go with JS as their new systems language is because that requires more work, so it's delayed until Win9.
>>
>> ....Either that or their HR drones screwed up the job posting, which
>> based on
>> my experience with HR people seems entirely plausible. They probably got
>> confused by all the many, many "buttons" on their keyboards.
>>
>>
>
> Er, that job posting did say "native *ahead-of-time*" compilers. I.e. no VM.
>

Meh, so much for my stupid joke then... :(

That is usually one of the arguments Go people use against generics.

I tend to call C++, D, C#, Ada and other languages with powerful
abstraction mechanisms as programming languages for people with
brains.

On my huge entreprise projects, I always despair with the
amount of knowledge some developers have.

Every time I see certain types of enterprise code, I cannot
even imagine how those developers would write in C, just to
give an example.

Me I prefer to use languages with proper expression mechanisms,
like D. Unfortunately the big guys prefer languages that allow
for replaceable programmers.

--
Paulo

On Saturday, 21 April 2012 at 08:49:15 UTC, so wrote:
> On Friday, 20 April 2012 at 12:30:19 UTC, SomeDude wrote:
>
>> What I don't get is why no large software company is backing up D right now. It's quite clear by now that D is by far the language that has the best feature set to be the successor to C++.
>
> Answer is i think quite simple. How many C++ developers do you think use templates more than like "<T>min(Ta){ reuturn a<b?a:b }"? I don't believe it is more than 5%. We first need to show how powerfull and accessible templates/ctfe in D. We need to stop saying "D does templates better than C++". This is huge underestimation. By stating it this way we are just targetting like 1% of the C++ audience. We need to teach people how to do templates. Starting with Boost community. If D can't absorb Boost community. There is no hope in neither D nor Boost, we should just stop!
>
>> If IBM for example was helping D like they did for eclipse, the traction would be huge and the toolchain would stabilize so much faster. :(

On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 06:34:40PM +0200, Paulo Pinto wrote:
> That is usually one of the arguments Go people use against generics.
> 
> I tend to call C++, D, C#, Ada and other languages with powerful abstraction mechanisms as programming languages for people with brains.
> 
> On my huge entreprise projects, I always despair with the amount of knowledge some developers have.

Thanks, now I can stop feeling like I'm the only one who feels that way when I look at some ... shall I say, utterly atrocious code? ... in enterprise projects at work.


> Every time I see certain types of enterprise code, I cannot even imagine how those developers would write in C, just to give an example.

You're lucky. I get to deal with _C code_ written by these kinds of developers. Like recently when I reviewed some code to find that it was using *string operations* for what should have been bitwise operations (i.e., convert to string, do string ops, convert back). Or like some time ago when we had to deal with a particular set of static tables that had been copy-n-pasted EVERYWHERE, *and* reimplemented several times over (incompletely and with gratuitously incompatible representations), all mutually inconsistent but treated as though they were the same table.

Just don't get me started on C++ code that had copy-n-pasted excerpts from C code that broke in subtle ways because of language differences that obviously the person who did it was completely oblivious to.


> Me I prefer to use languages with proper expression mechanisms, like D. Unfortunately the big guys prefer languages that allow for replaceable programmers.
[...]

Y'know, I'm starting to actually be glad that there's somewhere to send those replaceable programmers instead of having them write more horrendous C code than they already are. Send them to a Java shop, problem solved. Reassign them to the PHP team and let them wreak havoc there. Just keep them away from the mission-critical low-level code that can't afford to break, no matter what.


T

-- 
Meat: euphemism for dead animal. -- Flora

On Saturday, 21 April 2012 at 19:03:26 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 21, 2012 at 06:34:40PM +0200, Paulo Pinto wrote:
>> Me I prefer to use languages with proper expression mechanisms, like
>> D. Unfortunately the big guys prefer languages that allow for
>> replaceable programmers.
> [...]
>
> Y'know, I'm starting to actually be glad that there's somewhere to send
> those replaceable programmers instead of having them write more
> horrendous C code than they already are. Send them to a Java shop,
> problem solved. Reassign them to the PHP team and let them wreak havoc
> there. Just keep them away from the mission-critical low-level code that
> can't afford to break, no matter what.
>
>
> T

One of the reasons I am planning to move away from JVM, .NET projects
back into native language world, is to get away of such developers.

But given your comment, I guess it might be in vain.

On Thursday, 19 April 2012 at 18:21:30 UTC, Paulo Pinto wrote:
> Hi,
>
> just wanted to announce that Sony has finally made the new Playstation
> Vita SDK available, as we were discussing some months ago.
>
> http://www.playstation.com/pss/index_e.html
>
> The gamming industry seems to be slowing moving to C#. Would we still
> be able to convince developers to move to D instead?
>
> --
> Paulo


As a mobile game developer myself, this was one of my deepest dreams. I'm a silent D follower since it's beginnings, and did some game development back them (D2 didn't existed yet, though). You know, working with mobile game development is very hard, as there is this beast called multi-platforms. We started working with Java+Android, but the lack of performance and the need to port our games to iOS made us take a drastic move and port the engine to C++. This worked ok, but as an avid D guy, almost daily I stumble myself arguing with myself "Oh my god, this would be so clean/beautiful/simple if made with D".

So please folks, lets do something to the D-ARM backend. I'm not a compiler expert, but if someone volunteer to mention I'm disposed to learn how to do that as I would love to use D on a game engine. This is (at least to me) a point were D would shine so much (being able to integrate many platforms) that it's visibility could skyrocket to were it deserves.

Another option that crossed my mind was to do something like a kickstarter funding to pay someone to do that fulltime. What you guys think?

On 04/22/2012 03:43 PM, Victor Vicente de Carvalho wrote:
>
> Another option that crossed my mind was to do something like a
> kickstarter funding to pay someone to do that fulltime. What you guys
> think?
>

I think "FUCK YES".  I would dump money on that. ;)