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April 14, 2007
Re: Time to do a Man's Work ??
Bill Baxter wrote:
> James Dennett wrote:
>> Here I've seen people say "Why shouldn't A be attacked,
>> when A already attacked library B?".  The answer is:
>> A is a person, B is software.  Software doesn't need
>> people to be civil to it.  People do.  
> 
> Erin Brockovich: "NOT PERSONAL! That is my WORK, my SWEAT, and MY TIME
> AWAY FROM MY KIDS! IF THAT IS NOT PERSONAL, I DON'T KNOW WHAT IS!"
> 
> If person C spends extraordinary amounts of time on library B, then it's
> not surprising that person C would take attacks on library B personally.
>   Not saying that person C *should*, but it's human nature.

And yet there are places where many people gather,
in person or virtually, and have heated discussions,
without this confusion arising -- so at least it is
known to be something that can be overcome (and in
my opinion *must* be overcome in striving for the
best solutions).

-- James
April 14, 2007
Re: Time to do a Man's Work ??
David B. Held wrote:
> James Dennett wrote:
>> [...]
>> If we take the rules of one moderated forum with which
>> I am familiar, there are no limits on how forceful
>> criticisms of designs or implementations can be -- but
>> no personal attacks are permitted.  Occasionally
>> something slips past the moderators that others view
>> as a personal attack, and that usually wastes some
>> cycles when it does occur.  But rarely is there much
>> disruption from discussion of technical matters, even
>> when it's wrong/aggressive/discouraging.  Even the
>> very best programmers make many mistakes, and they
>> get to *be* the very best by being open to finding
>> those mistakes and learning from them.
>> [...]
> 
> Yup.  I learned much of what I know about C++ from participating in 
> Boost, and I will tell you something...Boost contributors can be the 
> most unforgiving software critics you ever met.  Criticisms can be 
> brutal, scathing, and downright heartless, but they are always about the 
> technical merits of libraries being proposed.

Same here.  Boost and the C++ usenet groups (c.l.c++.m and c.s.c++) have 
been a significant factor in shaping the way I present myself online.

> Is D ready for something like a Boost effort?  I don't know.  Like I 
> implied, it takes more than mere technical merit to form a community 
> like Boost.  But I think it would be great if we asked ourselves if we 
> were ready for something like this, and did what it takes to make it 
> happen.  I think this is something of what Walter was suggesting when it 
> comes to "certified" libraries in DSource.  "Certified" means "peer 
> reviewed *and approved* by experts", and should give the same type of 
> quality guarantee that "Boost Library" does.  Just something to think 
> about...

For what it's worth, this is what the Ares project was originally 
intended to be.  But in hindsight, I think it was probably a bit 
premature, and the goal of the project changed over time as a result. 
Tango is a bit more focused in what we aim to achieve however, and I 
think the vetting of new packages would probably be better done in an 
independent project.  The proposed dsource rating system may indeed be 
the best place for this, particularly if there were a structured way to 
evaluate or critique code.


Sean
April 14, 2007
Re: Time to do a Man's Work ??
Bill Baxter wrote:
> If person C spends extraordinary amounts of time on library B, then it's 
> not surprising that person C would take attacks on library B personally. 
>   Not saying that person C *should*, but it's human nature.

It's understandable, but I think we should adjust the culture here so 
that personal attacks are no longer condoned.
April 14, 2007
Re: Time to do a Man's Work ??
Walter Bright wrote:
> Bill Baxter wrote:
> 
>> If person C spends extraordinary amounts of time on library B, then 
>> it's not surprising that person C would take attacks on library B 
>> personally.   Not saying that person C *should*, but it's human nature.
> 
> It's understandable, but I think we should adjust the culture here so 
> that personal attacks are no longer condoned.

I agree.

PS, interesting to note that up to recently, we used to be pretty proud 
in this NG of not having had any major personal attacks or wars.

Ah, well, there also was a time when the xhost command was unneeded on 
the Internet.

The famous 80/20 rule doesn't apply here. It's more like 98/2. And 
that's really depressing, considering the waste, extra work, and 
gratuituous obstacles we all have to face, just for the sake of a small 
fraction.
April 14, 2007
Re: Time to do a Man's Work ??
Walter Bright wrote:
> Bill Baxter wrote:
>> If person C spends extraordinary amounts of time on library B, then 
>> it's not surprising that person C would take attacks on library B 
>> personally.   Not saying that person C *should*, but it's human nature.
> 
> It's understandable, but I think we should adjust the culture here so 
> that personal attacks are no longer condoned.

Indeed.  I think we shouldn't hesitate to collectively jump in and shout 
"TAKE IT OFF LIST" when flame wars, personal attacks, or any other crap 
starts up.

--bb
April 14, 2007
Re: Time to do a Man's Work ??
Walter Bright wrote:
> Bill Baxter wrote:
>> If person C spends extraordinary amounts of time on library B, then 
>> it's not surprising that person C would take attacks on library B 
>> personally.   Not saying that person C *should*, but it's human nature.
> 
> It's understandable, but I think we should adjust the culture here so 
> that personal attacks are no longer condoned.

Or even tolerated, but I guess that couldn't be controlled w/o a moderated group.

BTW - Anyone ever run into a case where a moderator canned something just because of their personal 
opinions (on the technical subject matter)?
April 14, 2007
Re: Time to do a Man's Work ??
Dave wrote:
> Walter Bright wrote:
>> Bill Baxter wrote:
>>> If person C spends extraordinary amounts of time on library B, then 
>>> it's not surprising that person C would take attacks on library B 
>>> personally.   Not saying that person C *should*, but it's human nature.
>>
>> It's understandable, but I think we should adjust the culture here so 
>> that personal attacks are no longer condoned.
> 
> Or even tolerated, but I guess that couldn't be controlled w/o a 
> moderated group.
> 
> BTW - Anyone ever run into a case where a moderator canned something 
> just because of their personal opinions (on the technical subject matter)?

I've run into issues that aren't necessarily due to "personal opinion", 
per se; but let's just say that moderation is no panacea (which is why I 
 don't tend to favor it all that much).  One problem with moderation is 
that it tends to have an Old Boy Network effect.

Dave
April 15, 2007
Re: Time to do a Man's Work ??
Walter Bright escribió:
> Georg Wrede wrote:
>> Yes, stardom is nice. Academic rigor is nice. Extensive language 
>> design experience is nice. Having a PhD is nice. Highly intelligent is 
>> nice. Ability to notice and focus on what's crucial is nice. And yes, 
>> many here have at least some of these attributes.
> 
> True, but there's another factor as well - the ability to work with 
> people face to face. That's why we're having the D conference in August. 
> I hope to be able to meet as many of you as possible then.

First half of August, I hope? Anything after the 23rd would conflict with 
school, and perhaps I'm not the only one in that situation.

-- 
Carlos Santander Bernal
April 15, 2007
Re: Time to do a Man's Work ??
Carlos Santander wrote:
> Walter Bright escribió:
>> True, but there's another factor as well - the ability to work with 
>> people face to face. That's why we're having the D conference in 
>> August. I hope to be able to meet as many of you as possible then.
> 
> First half of August, I hope? Anything after the 23rd would conflict 
> with school, and perhaps I'm not the only one in that situation.

End of August. Brad Roberts is organizing it.
April 15, 2007
Re: Time to do a Man's Work ??
Walter Bright escribió:
> Carlos Santander wrote:
>> Walter Bright escribió:
>>> True, but there's another factor as well - the ability to work with 
>>> people face to face. That's why we're having the D conference in 
>>> August. I hope to be able to meet as many of you as possible then.
>>
>> First half of August, I hope? Anything after the 23rd would conflict 
>> with school, and perhaps I'm not the only one in that situation.
> 
> End of August. Brad Roberts is organizing it.

That's going to be a problem, I guess. Anyway, long time to go, yet, so let's 
see how things pan out.

-- 
Carlos Santander Bernal
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