Andrei Alexandrescu, el 18 de enero a las 07:49 me escribiste:
> On 1/18/12 4:38 AM, Leandro Lucarella wrote:
> >Andrei Alexandrescu, el 17 de enero a las 16:04 me escribiste:
> >>On 1/17/12 3:49 PM, Leandro Lucarella wrote:
> >>>I'm not a fan of bugzilla, but why it doesn't fit for that?
> >>
> >>Ranking and tracking progress on large and complex tasks e.g. shared libraries and win64 with bugzilla is problematic.
> >
> >Why? You just repeated the same but didn't tell why :)
> 
> Well the process is stalled for now. Walter didn't get trello.com to work on XP/IE8 and considers that a showstopper.

ENOPARSE

Why you can't do that using bugzilla was the question, in case you want to answer it eventually :)

-- 
Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca)                     http://llucax.com.ar/
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Long you live and high you fly
And smiles you'll give and tears you'll cry
And all you touch and all you see
Is all your life will ever be.

On 1/18/12 9:29 AM, Leandro Lucarella wrote:
> Andrei Alexandrescu, el 18 de enero a las 07:49 me escribiste:
>> On 1/18/12 4:38 AM, Leandro Lucarella wrote:
>>> Andrei Alexandrescu, el 17 de enero a las 16:04 me escribiste:
>>>> On 1/17/12 3:49 PM, Leandro Lucarella wrote:
>>>>> I'm not a fan of bugzilla, but why it doesn't fit for that?
>>>>
>>>> Ranking and tracking progress on large and complex tasks e.g. shared libraries and win64 with bugzilla is problematic.
>>>
>>> Why? You just repeated the same but didn't tell why :)
>>
>> Well the process is stalled for now. Walter didn't get trello.com to work on XP/IE8 and considers that a showstopper.
>
> ENOPARSE

I meant the answer would be superfluous now that the entire process has been stalled.

> Why you can't do that using bugzilla was the question, in case you want to answer it eventually :)

It's simple - planning software has means to rank and track large tasks of coarse granularity. Bugzilla offers as far as I can tell ranking by eight predefined severities ("enhancement" through "regression") but no simple way to say "let me put this task ahead the other".  There's no way to establish milestones and track progress for a task. There's no way to show "top-level" tasks of which many other smaller tasks depend - all you get is a flat view of thousands of issues.

I'm sure we could devise workarounds, but at best we should use for collaborative planning something that is geared for collaborative planning.


Andrei

On Wednesday, January 18, 2012 07:49:38 Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
> On 1/18/12 4:38 AM, Leandro Lucarella wrote:
> > Andrei Alexandrescu, el 17 de enero a las 16:04 me escribiste:
> >> On 1/17/12 3:49 PM, Leandro Lucarella wrote:
> >>> I'm not a fan of bugzilla, but why it doesn't fit for that?
> >> 
> >> Ranking and tracking progress on large and complex tasks e.g. shared libraries and win64 with bugzilla is problematic.
> > 
> > Why? You just repeated the same but didn't tell why :)
> 
> Well the process is stalled for now. Walter didn't get trello.com to work on XP/IE8 and considers that a showstopper.

Walter uses IE? I've lost all faith in him... ;)

- Jonathan M Davis

On 18 jan 2012, at 14:49, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

> On 1/18/12 4:38 AM, Leandro Lucarella wrote:
>> Andrei Alexandrescu, el 17 de enero a las 16:04 me escribiste:
>>> On 1/17/12 3:49 PM, Leandro Lucarella wrote:
>>>> I'm not a fan of bugzilla, but why it doesn't fit for that?
>>> 
>>> Ranking and tracking progress on large and complex tasks e.g. shared libraries and win64 with bugzilla is problematic.
>> 
>> Why? You just repeated the same but didn't tell why :)
> 
> Well the process is stalled for now. Walter didn't get trello.com to work on XP/IE8 and considers that a showstopper.


That's a concern, not that trello doesn't support IE8 but that Walter uses it.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg

Andrei Alexandrescu, el 18 de enero a las 10:35 me escribiste:
> >>Well the process is stalled for now. Walter didn't get trello.com to work on XP/IE8 and considers that a showstopper.
> >
> >ENOPARSE
> 
> I meant the answer would be superfluous now that the entire process has been stalled.

I still don't understand how Walter problems with trello.com has anything to do with anything, or about what "process" are you talking about, but never mind, I guess is not really important anyway.

> >Why you can't do that using bugzilla was the question, in case you want to answer it eventually :)
> 
> It's simple - planning software has means to rank and track large tasks of coarse granularity. Bugzilla offers as far as I can tell ranking by eight predefined severities ("enhancement" through "regression") but no simple way to say "let me put this task ahead the other".  There's no way to establish milestones and track progress for a task. There's no way to show "top-level" tasks of which many other smaller tasks depend - all you get is a flat view of thousands of issues.
> 
> I'm sure we could devise workarounds, but at best we should use for collaborative planning something that is geared for collaborative planning.

OK, so you could do all you need with bugzilla, but you want a better tool for that purpose, instead of stretching bugzilla's limits. Sounds reasonable, but I think you should have in mind that both tools will have a lot in common, and it will be hard to figure out what's a bug and belongs to bugzilla, and what's a task and belongs to the planning tool. I fear this will divide the community, and make both tools redundant, having duplicates among the tools.

-- 
Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca)                     http://llucax.com.ar/
----------------------------------------------------------------------
GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145  104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
More people die from a champagne-cork popping,
than from poison spiders

It's simple: It usually goes in both. You file a bug/enhancement request/whatever on Bugzilla. People then post on Trello when they're working on it, adding comments/changes as they make progress.

It's important to understand that Trello is for more real-time coordination of tasks, while Bugzilla is more of a "new bug -> confirmed -> closed (as fixed or wontfix or whatever)" thing.

Regards,
Alex

On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 6:25 PM, Leandro Lucarella <luca at llucax.com.ar> wrote:
> Andrei Alexandrescu, el 18 de enero a las 10:35 me escribiste:
>> >>Well the process is stalled for now. Walter didn't get trello.com to work on XP/IE8 and considers that a showstopper.
>> >
>> >ENOPARSE
>>
>> I meant the answer would be superfluous now that the entire process has been stalled.
>
> I still don't understand how Walter problems with trello.com has anything to do with anything, or about what "process" are you talking about, but never mind, I guess is not really important anyway.
>
>> >Why you can't do that using bugzilla was the question, in case you want to answer it eventually :)
>>
>> It's simple - planning software has means to rank and track large tasks of coarse granularity. Bugzilla offers as far as I can tell ranking by eight predefined severities ("enhancement" through "regression") but no simple way to say "let me put this task ahead the other". ?There's no way to establish milestones and track progress for a task. There's no way to show "top-level" tasks of which many other smaller tasks depend - all you get is a flat view of thousands of issues.
>>
>> I'm sure we could devise workarounds, but at best we should use for collaborative planning something that is geared for collaborative planning.
>
> OK, so you could do all you need with bugzilla, but you want a better tool for that purpose, instead of stretching bugzilla's limits. Sounds reasonable, but I think you should have in mind that both tools will have a lot in common, and it will be hard to figure out what's a bug and belongs to bugzilla, and what's a task and belongs to the planning tool. I fear this will divide the community, and make both tools redundant, having duplicates among the tools.
>
> --
> Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca) ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? http://llucax.com.ar/
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145 ?104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05)
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> More people die from a champagne-cork popping,
> than from poison spiders
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Alex, el 18 de enero a las 18:46 me escribiste:
> It's simple: It usually goes in both. You file a bug/enhancement request/whatever on Bugzilla. People then post on Trello when they're working on it, adding comments/changes as they make progress.

So now to know the state or a bug I have to see 2 sites. Great!

-- 
Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca)                     http://llucax.com.ar/
----------------------------------------------------------------------
GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145  104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Se ha dicho tanto que las apariencias enga?an
Por supuesto que enga?ar?n a quien sea tan vulgar como para creerlo

Bugzilla has never really been used for work coordination, so you're right - you'd have to check two places. But with Trello you at least *know* the specific status of active work on a bug; not the case currently. I'm having trouble seeing how it's a problem to introduce Trello as an additional coordination tool, when it doesn't replace anything, but rather complements what we have.

All things considered, Bugzilla is pretty horrible for this kind of stuff - just the lack of boards is a big minus. Even if we don't settle on Trello, I don't think Bugzilla is the right tool.

Regards,
Alex

On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 7:26 PM, Leandro Lucarella <luca at llucax.com.ar> wrote:
> Alex, el 18 de enero a las 18:46 me escribiste:
>> It's simple: It usually goes in both. You file a bug/enhancement request/whatever on Bugzilla. People then post on Trello when they're working on it, adding comments/changes as they make progress.
>
> So now to know the state or a bug I have to see 2 sites. Great!
>
> --
> Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca) ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? http://llucax.com.ar/
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145 ?104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05)
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Se ha dicho tanto que las apariencias enga?an
> Por supuesto que enga?ar?n a quien sea tan vulgar como para creerlo
> _______________________________________________
> dmd-internals mailing list
> dmd-internals at puremagic.com
> http://lists.puremagic.com/mailman/listinfo/dmd-internals

On 1/18/2012 8:35 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

> It's simple - planning software has means to rank and track large tasks of coarse granularity. Bugzilla offers as far as I can tell ranking by eight predefined severities ("enhancement" through "regression") but no simple way to say "let me put this task ahead the other".  There's no way to establish milestones and track progress for a task. There's no way to show "top-level" tasks of which many other smaller tasks depend - all you get is a flat view of thousands of issues.
> 
> I'm sure we could devise workarounds, but at best we should use for collaborative planning something that is geared for collaborative planning.
> 
> 
> Andrei

Well, then there's the problem.. your understanding of what bugzilla supports.  As I said earlier, there's capabilites that we're not currently using that we could be.  Please go read up on bugzilla's support of both milestones and fully customizeable priorities and severities.  The hierarchy part is sort of true.  Bugzilla does have depends on and blocks relationships that can be established, and you can search based on them.  It's not as good as it could be, but it does work.  For example, this search shows all open D bugs that block another bug:

http://d.puremagic.com/issues/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&field0-0-0=blocked&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&type0-0-0=notequals&value0-0-0=null&component=DMD&product=D

Also of note, there's a number of major projects that do their entire planning within bugzilla.  A classic example is the Mozilla guys.. from which bugzilla was borne.  Another is GCC.

I'm not against use of tools (obviously, I've been _the_ person installing and building tools for us so far), should we find one that's ideal.  But I also don't feel like prioritization, scheduling, and sticking to those are going to be solved by more tools.  They're social issues.

On 1/18/12 12:26 PM, Leandro Lucarella wrote:
> Alex, el 18 de enero a las 18:46 me escribiste:
>> It's simple: It usually goes in both. You file a bug/enhancement request/whatever on Bugzilla. People then post on Trello when they're working on it, adding comments/changes as they make progress.
>
> So now to know the state or a bug I have to see 2 sites. Great!

We have in-house task management software at Facebook that is separate from (and virtually not integrated with) the issue tracking software. We use it to great effect, and based on that experience I can tell it would be beneficial (I'd actually say "basic survival") to use something similar for D.

Leandro, your thoughts and ideas are always welcome, but they seem to come straight from the viewpoint that we're good as we are. As a participant to this project, I can tell we're not. Me must get organized in 2012 as an essential matter.


Andrei