Thanks Oleg. Does anyone have additional experience with these tools?

Andrei

On 1/18/12 9:24 AM, Oleg Kuporosov wrote:
> Hi Andrey,
>
> Do you need collaboration tool or tool like application life cycle management?
>
> Anyway such tools are strongly depend on development processes setup in teams.
>
>  From OS world for ALM I've heard about Jabox (www.jabox.org
> <http://www.jabox.org>) has integration with Github/git + Bugzilla,
> Endeavour http://endeavour-mgmt.sourceforge.net/ and Mylyn
> http://eclipse.org/mylyn/ but no expirience from me. It all need some
> customization. There is also http://www.springsource.com/code2cloud from
> VMware in cloud based on Mylyn.
>
> And full spectrum from IBM Rational through MS VS Ultimate till Project+Excel for Windows world.
>
> Personal expirience (server reports + small dashboard) I can share by
> email (small-to-medium projects in for 2-3 sites accross the globe).
>
> Oleg.
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> dmd-internals mailing list
> dmd-internals at puremagic.com
> http://lists.puremagic.com/mailman/listinfo/dmd-internals

(re-adding the list to keep the discussion public)

On 1/18/2012 11:19 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
> On 1/18/12 1:11 PM, Brad Roberts wrote:
>> On 1/18/2012 8:35 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Well, then there's the problem.. your understanding of what bugzilla supports.  As I said earlier, there's capabilites that we're not currently using that we could be.  Please go read up on bugzilla's support of both milestones and fully customizeable priorities and severities.  The hierarchy part is sort of true.  Bugzilla does have depends on and blocks relationships that can be established, and you can search based on them.  It's not as good as it could be, but it does work. For example, this search shows all open D bugs that block another bug:
>>
>> http://d.puremagic.com/issues/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&field0-0-0=blocked&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&type0-0-0=notequals&value0-0-0=null&component=DMD&product=D
>>
>>
>>  Also of note, there's a number of major projects that do their
>> entire planning within bugzilla.  A classic example is the Mozilla
>> guys.. from which bugzilla was borne.  Another is GCC.
> 
> This echoes my thoughts: it's clear people who are well versed in, and committed to, bugzilla, can make it work for their planning.

So, because I listed projects I was sure you'd be familiar with you're suggesting it requires expert quality people to
use it?  Way to further preconceived notions.  Have you done any reading or research, or just ruled it out for some reason?

>> I'm not against use of tools (obviously, I've been _the_ person installing and building tools for us so far), should we find one that's ideal.  But I also don't feel like prioritization, scheduling, and sticking to those are going to be solved by more tools.  They're social issues.
> 
> They're social issues that can be helped by tools.

Yes, they can.  If the people want to be helped.  Our consistency with even the simplest, fixing regression bugs, suggests we've got bigger issues than just tooling.

On 1/18/2012 9:14 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
>
> That's a concern, not that trello doesn't support IE8 but that Walter uses it.
>

Whether I use IE8 or not is irrelevant to using trello.

The issue is more one of telling D developers and collaborators "if you want to even look at the project plan, you have to change operating systems or install a browser from a different company." It's not like IE8 is rare out there, and IE9 will not install on Windows XP. IE8 has what, a 50% market share?

As I wrote here earlier (why was this cross-posted to multiple D mailing lists? Now there are two different threads on the same topic.) I submitted a bug report on this to trello. The response was they blew it off.

Should we be blowing off D collaborators with derisive comments about IE8 users? I'm fine with blowing off DOS users, Windows 95 users, etc., but XP is still a widely used operating system and we blow XP developers off at our peril. In a couple years, when MS officially dumps support for it, maybe.

On 1/18/12 1:28 PM, Brad Roberts wrote:
> (re-adding the list to keep the discussion public)
>
> On 1/18/2012 11:19 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>> On 1/18/12 1:11 PM, Brad Roberts wrote:
>>> Also of note, there's a number of major projects that do their entire planning within bugzilla.  A classic example is the Mozilla guys.. from which bugzilla was borne.  Another is GCC.
>>
>> This echoes my thoughts: it's clear people who are well versed in, and committed to, bugzilla, can make it work for their planning.
>
> So, because I listed projects I was sure you'd be familiar with you're suggesting it requires expert quality people to use it?  Way to further preconceived notions.  Have you done any reading or research, or just ruled it out for some reason?

The reason I made that remark is because the mozilla guys are those "from which bugzilla was borne". I have no trouble figuring they are fluent enough with bugzilla to use it for whatever they want.

>>> I'm not against use of tools (obviously, I've been _the_ person
>>> installing and building tools for us so far), should we find one
>>>  that's ideal.  But I also don't feel like prioritization,
>>> scheduling, and sticking to those are going to be solved by more
>>> tools.  They're social issues.
>>
>> They're social issues that can be helped by tools.
>
> Yes, they can.  If the people want to be helped.  Our consistency with even the simplest, fixing regression bugs, suggests we've got bigger issues than just tooling.

I think this is a false choice.

Anyway, I'm dropping the whole initiative.



Andrei

On Wednesday, January 18, 2012 11:45:17 Walter Bright wrote:
> On 1/18/2012 9:14 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
> > That's a concern, not that trello doesn't support IE8 but that Walter uses it.
> Whether I use IE8 or not is irrelevant to using trello.
> 
> The issue is more one of telling D developers and collaborators "if you want to even look at the project plan, you have to change operating systems or install a browser from a different company." It's not like IE8 is rare out there, and IE9 will not install on Windows XP. IE8 has what, a 50% market share?
> 
> As I wrote here earlier (why was this cross-posted to multiple D mailing lists? Now there are two different threads on the same topic.) I submitted a bug report on this to trello. The response was they blew it off.
> 
> Should we be blowing off D collaborators with derisive comments about IE8 users? I'm fine with blowing off DOS users, Windows 95 users, etc., but XP is still a widely used operating system and we blow XP developers off at our peril. In a couple years, when MS officially dumps support for it, maybe.

Personally, I was joking more than anything, though I'm always surprised to see a programmer using IE (of whatever version) as their principle browser. It's definitely far better than it used to be, but I've avoided it for years on general principle, and most computer-savvy that I've known have done the same. I'd fully expect programmers to have other browsers installed and be using one of those normally.

Still, it's pretty bad that Trello doesn't work on IE8. Even if IE8 were absolute junk, it's one of the most used browsers on the planet (though IIRC IE in general has fallen below 50% market share now). So, unless there's something fundamentally wrong with it that really doesn't make it work with what you're trying to do (and maybe even then), I would think that it would be quite important to get your web app working on IE8.

- Jonathan M Davis

On 1/18/2012 11:51 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
> 
> Anyway, I'm dropping the whole initiative.
> 
> 
> 
> Andrei

Don't drop it.  I think the underlying point is spot on.  We absolutely need much better project management.  Actually
making specific plans and sticking to them or making the alterations that come along with discussion and deliberateness.
 I've tried to influence things with suggestions and gentle pressure.  It's had less effect than I'd hoped.

On 18 jan 2012, at 20:14, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:

> On 1/18/12 12:26 PM, Leandro Lucarella wrote:
>> Alex, el 18 de enero a las 18:46 me escribiste:
>>> It's simple: It usually goes in both. You file a bug/enhancement request/whatever on Bugzilla. People then post on Trello when they're working on it, adding comments/changes as they make progress.
>> 
>> So now to know the state or a bug I have to see 2 sites. Great!
> 
> We have in-house task management software at Facebook that is separate from (and virtually not integrated with) the issue tracking software. We use it to great effect, and based on that experience I can tell it would be beneficial (I'd actually say "basic survival") to use something similar for D.
> 
> Leandro, your thoughts and ideas are always welcome, but they seem to come straight from the viewpoint that we're good as we are. As a participant to this project, I can tell we're not. Me must get organized in 2012 as an essential matter.


I think it could be good to use trello for more high level goals than single bugzilla issues. But that might be what you're already saying.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg

On 18 jan 2012, at 20:45, Walter Bright wrote:

> 
> 
> On 1/18/2012 9:14 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
>> 
>> That's a concern, not that trello doesn't support IE8 but that Walter uses it.
>> 
> 
> Whether I use IE8 or not is irrelevant to using trello.
> 
> The issue is more one of telling D developers and collaborators "if you want to even look at the project plan, you have to change operating systems or install a browser from a different company." It's not like IE8 is rare out there, and IE9 will not install on Windows XP. IE8 has what, a 50% market share?
> 
> As I wrote here earlier (why was this cross-posted to multiple D mailing lists? Now there are two different threads on the same topic.) I submitted a bug report on this to trello. The response was they blew it off.
> 
> Should we be blowing off D collaborators with derisive comments about IE8 users? I'm fine with blowing off DOS users, Windows 95 users, etc., but XP is still a widely used operating system and we blow XP developers off at our peril. In a couple years, when MS officially dumps support for it, maybe.


Sorry, I probably should have added a smiley after that comment.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg

On 1/18/2012 11:54 AM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
>
> Still, it's pretty bad that Trello doesn't work on IE8. Even if IE8 were absolute junk, it's one of the most used browsers on the planet (though IIRC IE in general has fallen below 50% market share now). So, unless there's something fundamentally wrong with it that really doesn't make it work with what you're trying to do (and maybe even then), I would think that it would be quite important to get your web app working on IE8.
>

Trello is the first web site I've encountered that won't work with IE8. Undoubtedly there will be more in the future, but I don't think our mission is to be in the vanguard of evangelizing people to change operating systems or switch browsers.

>  I'd fully expect programmers to have other browsers installed and be using one
of those normally.


I had a minor issue with github on IE8, reported it, and the github dev team had it fixed within a day. Github is targeted at computer savvy developers. I often send around and post links to github pages (and I think doing so is crucial to D), with nary a concern that my target audience will not be able to view the pages.

On Wednesday, January 18, 2012 12:26:12 Walter Bright wrote:
> 
> Trello is the first web site I've encountered that won't work with IE8. Undoubtedly there will be more in the future, but I don't think our mission is to be in the vanguard of evangelizing people to change operating systems or switch browsers.

Of course not, though if Trello was really what we wanted and the only concern was that it didn't work with IE8, I'm not sure that that should really be a deal-breaker. But it's not like we've decided that we really want to use Trello. It's just one of the options.

> I had a minor issue with github on IE8, reported it, and the github dev team had it fixed within a day. Github is targeted at computer savvy developers. I often send around and post links to github pages (and I think doing so is crucial to D), with nary a concern that my target audience will not be able to view the pages.

Of course. You shouldn't have to worry about whether a particular page works in a particular browser. But fortunately, there are so many browsers these days (most of the being quite solid) that in the rare case that a particular page doesn't work with a particular browser, it's quite easy to try it with another. The browser situation is vastly better now than it was 10 years ago.

- Jonathan M Davis