On 1/18/2012 1:36 PM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
>
> Of course not, though if Trello was really what we wanted and the only concern was that it didn't work with IE8, I'm not sure that that should really be a deal-breaker. But it's not like we've decided that we really want to use Trello.

I'm not sure it's a deal breaker either, but we ought to make such a decision being fully cognizant of where it doesn't work.

Andrei Alexandrescu, el 18 de enero a las 13:14 me escribiste:
> On 1/18/12 12:26 PM, Leandro Lucarella wrote:
> >Alex, el 18 de enero a las 18:46 me escribiste:
> >>It's simple: It usually goes in both. You file a bug/enhancement request/whatever on Bugzilla. People then post on Trello when they're working on it, adding comments/changes as they make progress.
> >
> >So now to know the state or a bug I have to see 2 sites. Great!
> 
> We have in-house task management software at Facebook that is separate from (and virtually not integrated with) the issue tracking software. We use it to great effect, and based on that experience I can tell it would be beneficial (I'd actually say "basic survival") to use something similar for D.
> 
> Leandro, your thoughts and ideas are always welcome, but they seem to come straight from the viewpoint that we're good as we are. As a participant to this project, I can tell we're not. Me must get organized in 2012 as an essential matter.

No Andrei, you're wrong, take probably the biggest opensource project ever, Linux, as an example and realize that that's not **necessary** (if you think Linux is a completely different piece of software, take Python as an example). I've been always *pushing* ways to be more organized in the development of D, so I completely agree about the goal, I just feel like you might not be moving in the right direction.

Anyway, I will just shut up because I have no idea about what is Trello about and have no information whatsoever about do you plan to use it (is there any place where I can find this discussion?). If bugzilla will **really** stay the same (I wish it would get much better though, maybe that's why you feel like you need another tool), I will not complain anymore (same if it get *replaced* by a better alternative for that matter).

-- 
Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca)                     http://llucax.com.ar/
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GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145  104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05)
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22% of the time a pizza will arrive faster than an ambulance in Great-Britain

On 1/18/2012 2:48 PM, Leandro Lucarella wrote:
> Andrei Alexandrescu, el 18 de enero a las 13:14 me escribiste:
>> On 1/18/12 12:26 PM, Leandro Lucarella wrote:
>>> Alex, el 18 de enero a las 18:46 me escribiste:
>>>> It's simple: It usually goes in both. You file a bug/enhancement request/whatever on Bugzilla. People then post on Trello when they're working on it, adding comments/changes as they make progress.
>>>
>>> So now to know the state or a bug I have to see 2 sites. Great!
>>
>> We have in-house task management software at Facebook that is separate from (and virtually not integrated with) the issue tracking software. We use it to great effect, and based on that experience I can tell it would be beneficial (I'd actually say "basic survival") to use something similar for D.
>>
>> Leandro, your thoughts and ideas are always welcome, but they seem to come straight from the viewpoint that we're good as we are. As a participant to this project, I can tell we're not. Me must get organized in 2012 as an essential matter.
> 
> No Andrei, you're wrong, take probably the biggest opensource project ever, Linux, as an example and realize that that's not **necessary** (if you think Linux is a completely different piece of software, take Python as an example). I've been always *pushing* ways to be more organized in the development of D, so I completely agree about the goal, I just feel like you might not be moving in the right direction.
> 
> Anyway, I will just shut up because I have no idea about what is Trello about and have no information whatsoever about do you plan to use it (is there any place where I can find this discussion?). If bugzilla will **really** stay the same (I wish it would get much better though, maybe that's why you feel like you need another tool), I will not complain anymore (same if it get *replaced* by a better alternative for that matter).
> 

No, he's not wrong.  There's little value in taking the term 'necessary' to the extreme end of the scale.  That there are examples of projects/products that can survived with little if any organization and planning (and I posit that you're wrong about linux itself.. it has a LOT of structure within the organizations that contribute the most man power (redhat, being a great example)) is irrelevant.

Having roadmaps and planning out what the priorities are _is_ important to the point of being essentially necessary to have any semblance of professionalism.  The D, and more specifically DMD, development history is a fairly continuous stream of hoping from one area of excitement to another leaving many of them incompletely implemented.  The addition of more people contributing to DMD has done wonders for addressing some of the half done stuff (don's work on CTFE is a perfect example).

On 1/18/12 4:48 PM, Leandro Lucarella wrote:
> Andrei Alexandrescu, el 18 de enero a las 13:14 me escribiste:
>> Leandro, your thoughts and ideas are always welcome, but they seem to come straight from the viewpoint that we're good as we are. As a participant to this project, I can tell we're not. Me must get organized in 2012 as an essential matter.
>
> No Andrei, you're wrong, take probably the biggest opensource project ever, Linux, as an example and realize that that's not **necessary** (if you think Linux is a completely different piece of software, take Python as an example). I've been always *pushing* ways to be more organized in the development of D, so I completely agree about the goal, I just feel like you might not be moving in the right direction.

Linux and Python benefit from high participation. We don't have that yet, so we need to rely on better organization.

> Anyway, I will just shut up because I have no idea about what is Trello about and have no information whatsoever about do you plan to use it (is there any place where I can find this discussion?). If bugzilla will **really** stay the same (I wish it would get much better though, maybe that's why you feel like you need another tool), I will not complain anymore (same if it get *replaced* by a better alternative for that matter).

If you have no idea what Trello is about, isn't that a bit incongruent with the confidence with which you're sure I'm wrong?


Andrei

Brad Roberts, el 18 de enero a las 14:59 me escribiste:
> On 1/18/2012 2:48 PM, Leandro Lucarella wrote:
> > Andrei Alexandrescu, el 18 de enero a las 13:14 me escribiste:
> >> On 1/18/12 12:26 PM, Leandro Lucarella wrote:
> >>> Alex, el 18 de enero a las 18:46 me escribiste:
> >>>> It's simple: It usually goes in both. You file a bug/enhancement request/whatever on Bugzilla. People then post on Trello when they're working on it, adding comments/changes as they make progress.
> >>>
> >>> So now to know the state or a bug I have to see 2 sites. Great!
> >>
> >> We have in-house task management software at Facebook that is separate from (and virtually not integrated with) the issue tracking software. We use it to great effect, and based on that experience I can tell it would be beneficial (I'd actually say "basic survival") to use something similar for D.
> >>
> >> Leandro, your thoughts and ideas are always welcome, but they seem to come straight from the viewpoint that we're good as we are. As a participant to this project, I can tell we're not. Me must get organized in 2012 as an essential matter.
> > 
> > No Andrei, you're wrong, take probably the biggest opensource project ever, Linux, as an example and realize that that's not **necessary** (if you think Linux is a completely different piece of software, take Python as an example). I've been always *pushing* ways to be more organized in the development of D, so I completely agree about the goal, I just feel like you might not be moving in the right direction.
> > 
> > Anyway, I will just shut up because I have no idea about what is Trello about and have no information whatsoever about do you plan to use it (is there any place where I can find this discussion?). If bugzilla will **really** stay the same (I wish it would get much better though, maybe that's why you feel like you need another tool), I will not complain anymore (same if it get *replaced* by a better alternative for that matter).
> > 
> 
> No, he's not wrong.  There's little value in taking the term 'necessary' to the extreme end of the scale.  That there are examples of projects/products that can survived with little if any organization and planning (and I posit that you're wrong about linux itself.. it has a LOT of structure within the organizations that contribute the most man power (redhat, being a great example)) is irrelevant.

I was talking about introducing another tool. As I said, I'm all in for better organization. I just don't think that adding more tools to the mix will fix anything, because as you said, they are mostly social issues. I even think that adding more tools can *harm* organization, as you might not know where to report or look for stuff.

Where I think Andrei is wrong is in his reasoning about "if we don't get a new tool, we can't organize".

-- 
Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca)                     http://llucax.com.ar/
----------------------------------------------------------------------
GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145  104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
3 people die every year, testing if a 9 volts battery works on their tongue

On 1/18/12 5:44 PM, Leandro Lucarella wrote:
> Where I think Andrei is wrong is in his reasoning about "if we don't get a new tool, we can't organize".

Please tell us where we can put in our existing toolset a release milestone e.g. on Feb 15, create tasks for fixing five regressions, three oldest bugs, and at say ten other specific bugs until that milestone, assign them to people, and allow people to track their and others' progress toward that milestone.


Thanks,

Andrei

On 1/18/2012 3:57 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
> On 1/18/12 5:44 PM, Leandro Lucarella wrote:
>> Where I think Andrei is wrong is in his reasoning about "if we don't get a new tool, we can't organize".
> 
> Please tell us where we can put in our existing toolset a release milestone e.g. on Feb 15, create tasks for fixing five regressions, three oldest bugs, and at say ten other specific bugs until that milestone, assign them to people, and allow people to track their and others' progress toward that milestone.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Andrei

Bugzilla has all of that with the possible exception of formal support for a date on a milestone.

For the version of bugzilla we're running (looks to be the same for the current 4.x release):
  http://www.bugzilla.org/docs/3.4/en/html/milestones.html

On 1/18/12 6:12 PM, Brad Roberts wrote:
> On 1/18/2012 3:57 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>> On 1/18/12 5:44 PM, Leandro Lucarella wrote:
>>> Where I think Andrei is wrong is in his reasoning about "if we don't get a new tool, we can't organize".
>>
>> Please tell us where we can put in our existing toolset a release milestone e.g. on Feb 15, create tasks for fixing five regressions, three oldest bugs, and at say ten other specific bugs until that milestone, assign them to people, and allow people to track their and others' progress toward that milestone.
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Andrei
>
> Bugzilla has all of that with the possible exception of formal support for a date on a milestone.

That's a nice way or saying it doesn't.

Andrei

On 1/18/2012 4:59 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
> On 1/18/12 6:12 PM, Brad Roberts wrote:
>> On 1/18/2012 3:57 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>>> On 1/18/12 5:44 PM, Leandro Lucarella wrote:
>>>> Where I think Andrei is wrong is in his reasoning about "if we don't get a new tool, we can't organize".
>>>
>>> Please tell us where we can put in our existing toolset a release milestone e.g. on Feb 15, create tasks for fixing five regressions, three oldest bugs, and at say ten other specific bugs until that milestone, assign them to people, and allow people to track their and others' progress toward that milestone.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Andrei
>>
>> Bugzilla has all of that with the possible exception of formal support for a date on a milestone.
> 
> That's a nice way or saying it doesn't.
> 
> Andrei

Not in the least.  It means it doesn't have a calendar associated with milestones.  But you could create a milestone named "dmd 2.999 Feb 15" and assign whatever set of bugs you want to it.

I wouldn't name the releases like that, but instead have a separate roadmap that talks about milestones and stages for them.  But every other bit of the feature set you asked for is 100% there.

On 1/18/12 7:04 PM, Brad Roberts wrote:
> On 1/18/2012 4:59 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>> That's a nice way or saying it doesn't.
>>
>> Andrei
>
> Not in the least.  It means it doesn't have a calendar associated with milestones.  But you could create a milestone named "dmd 2.999 Feb 15" and assign whatever set of bugs you want to it.

So it _doesn't_.

> I wouldn't name the releases like that, but instead have a separate roadmap that talks about milestones and stages for them.  But every other bit of the feature set you asked for is 100% there.

Where is the progress on individual issues? Where is an overview of the issues that are being worked on? How easy is it to shuffle priorities around, or tack a task onto another release? Where are checklists that organize complex task? I'll tell you where they are. In the attached image.


Andrei

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