On 1/18/2012 5:04 PM, Brad Roberts wrote:
> On 1/18/2012 4:59 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>> On 1/18/12 6:12 PM, Brad Roberts wrote:
>>> Bugzilla has all of that with the possible exception of formal support for a date on a milestone.
>>
>> That's a nice way or saying it doesn't.
>>
>> Andrei
> 
> Not in the least.  It means it doesn't have a calendar associated with milestones.  But you could create a milestone named "dmd 2.999 Feb 15" and assign whatever set of bugs you want to it.
> 
> I wouldn't name the releases like that, but instead have a separate roadmap that talks about milestones and stages for them.  But every other bit of the feature set you asked for is 100% there.

As evidence, I just enabled milestones on our bugzilla instance, created one named 2.058 and assigned a phobos regression bug to you.  All open bugs associated with that milestone can be seen with this search:

http://d.puremagic.com/issues/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&target_milestone=2.058

(created by going to the search page and selecting the target milestone, leaving everything else at the default values)

Feel free (in fact encouraged) to explore the feature a bit.  I made you an administrator so you can see the admin link which contains, among other things, the product edit page which contains the components, versions, and milestones.

On 1/18/2012 5:15 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
> On 1/18/12 7:04 PM, Brad Roberts wrote:
>> On 1/18/2012 4:59 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>>> That's a nice way or saying it doesn't.
>>>
>>> Andrei
>>
>> Not in the least.  It means it doesn't have a calendar associated with milestones.  But you could create a milestone named "dmd 2.999 Feb 15" and assign whatever set of bugs you want to it.
> 
> So it _doesn't_.
> 
>> I wouldn't name the releases like that, but instead have a separate roadmap that talks about milestones and stages for them.  But every other bit of the feature set you asked for is 100% there.
> 

<slightly edited to make responding easier>

> 1) Where is the progress on individual issues?

search > select milestone, chose to include various states.

within each bug report, assign bug.  It might be worth adding a status for Work In Progress, which would take maybe 30 whole seconds to add.

> 2) Where is an overview of the issues that are being worked on?

report > tabular report > select milestone, place whatever field you're interested on the dimensions of the chart

> 3) How easy is it to shuffle priorities around

As easy as it is to pull up a bug and change the priority, severity, or milestone pull downs.. ie, trivial.

> 4) or tack a task onto another release?

See #3.. just pull up the bug(s) and set their milestone.

> 5) Where are checklists that organize complex task?

Ok, so it doesn't have check lists, but it DOES have depends-on bug relationships, so create sub-bugs and relate them.

> I'll tell you where they are. In the attached image.

No one ever claimed that other tools didn't have that capability, just that the tools we already use are more capable than we're taking advantage of.

> Andrei

Don't we require git in order to develop for D?

IMO learning git (if you prefer other version control systems, or don't know git) is way more taxing a requirement than requiring installing another browser.? The "switching OS" argument is ridiculous :)? And so is the 50% market share.? IE's total market share is just at 50%, and IIRC (wikipedia is protesting right now), a significant portion of that is IE6 (maybe 10% market share?)

It's not like trello.com would replace bugzilla, people who are not interested in developing D, but interested in reporting bugs on D would still be able to use IE8 to report bugs.

Not advocating for trello.com (I haven't even looked at the site), but we should not worry about catering to people who are petty enough to refuse working on a project because IE (or firefox, or opera, or whatever) doesn't support them.? But we should cater to people who already *do* work on D.? This means your opinion matters more than the worry of what others might think.


If it were an OS issue, I'd agree with you.? But browsers take about 2 minutes to install and the interface is near universal.

-Steve




>________________________________
> From: Walter Bright <walter at digitalmars.com>
>To: dmd-internals at puremagic.com
>Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 2:45 PM
>Subject: Re: [dmd-internals] Planning software?
> 
>
>
>On 1/18/2012 9:14 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
>> 
>> That's a concern, not that trello doesn't support IE8 but that Walter uses it.
>> 
>
>Whether I use IE8 or not is irrelevant to using trello.
>
>The issue is more one of telling D developers and collaborators "if you want to even look at the project plan, you have to change operating systems or install a browser from a different company." It's not like IE8 is rare out there, and IE9 will not install on Windows XP. IE8 has what, a 50% market share?
>
>As I wrote here earlier (why was this cross-posted to multiple D mailing lists? Now there are two different threads on the same topic.) I submitted a bug report on this to trello. The response was they blew it off.
>
>Should we be blowing off D collaborators with derisive comments about IE8 users? I'm fine with blowing off DOS users, Windows 95 users, etc., but XP is still a widely used operating system and we blow XP developers off at our peril. In a couple years, when MS officially dumps support for it, maybe.
>_______________________________________________
>dmd-internals mailing list
>dmd-internals at puremagic.com
>http://lists.puremagic.com/mailman/listinfo/dmd-internals
>
>
>

On Wed, 18 Jan 2012 23:06:25 +0100, Walter Bright <walter at digitalmars.com> wrote:

>
>
> On 1/18/2012 1:36 PM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
>>
>> Of course not, though if Trello was really what we wanted and the only
>> concern
>> was that it didn't work with IE8, I'm not sure that that should really
>> be a
>> deal-breaker. But it's not like we've decided that we really want to use
>> Trello.
>
> I'm not sure it's a deal breaker either, but we ought to make such a
> decision being fully cognizant of where it doesn't work.
> _______________________________________________
> dmd-internals mailing list
> dmd-internals at puremagic.com
> http://lists.puremagic.com/mailman/listinfo/dmd-internals

This one seems way more mature, less simplistic and they can even handle mouse scrolling.

http://flow.io
http://flow.io/whats_new.html
http://flow.io/plans.html

It's not free but:
"We support open-source projects. If you manage one, you can get a free
plan with unlimited users. Please contact us for details."

Brad Roberts, el 18 de enero a las 17:18 me escribiste:
> As evidence, I just enabled milestones on our bugzilla instance, created one named 2.058 and assigned a phobos regression bug to you. All open bugs associated with that milestone can be seen with this search:
> 
> http://d.puremagic.com/issues/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&target_milestone=2.058
> 
> (created by going to the search page and selecting the target milestone, leaving everything else at the default values)
> 
> Feel free (in fact encouraged) to explore the feature a bit.  I made you an administrator so you can see the admin link which contains, among other things, the product edit page which contains the components, versions, and milestones.

Also, you can save searches, so you can easily go to that "boards" with just one click. IIRC, you can even save a search that's available for everyone, to give a specific search more visibility.

-- 
Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca)                     http://llucax.com.ar/
----------------------------------------------------------------------
GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145  104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
La esperanza es una amiga que nos presta la ilusi?n.

Andrei Alexandrescu, el 18 de enero a las 17:11 me escribiste:
> >No Andrei, you're wrong, take probably the biggest opensource project ever, Linux, as an example and realize that that's not **necessary** (if you think Linux is a completely different piece of software, take Python as an example). I've been always *pushing* ways to be more organized in the development of D, so I completely agree about the goal, I just feel like you might not be moving in the right direction.
> 
> Linux and Python benefit from high participation. We don't have that yet, so we need to rely on better organization.

They didn't get participation from adding more tools. I don't know where do you get the idea that adding more tools will bring more people. Also, you're still associating "new tool" == "better organization" and my point is exactly that that's not true.

> >Anyway, I will just shut up because I have no idea about what is Trello about and have no information whatsoever about do you plan to use it (is there any place where I can find this discussion?). If bugzilla will **really** stay the same (I wish it would get much better though, maybe that's why you feel like you need another tool), I will not complain anymore (same if it get *replaced* by a better alternative for that matter).
> 
> If you have no idea what Trello is about, isn't that a bit incongruent with the confidence with which you're sure I'm wrong?

No, I'm just telling you about counter-examples. That's all I need to refute your reasoning :) (about the **need** for a new tool to get better organization, again, I do agree that we need better organization to grow, I don't agree about the means to get the better organization).

-- 
Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca)                     http://llucax.com.ar/
----------------------------------------------------------------------
GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145  104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Relax.
I'll need some information first.
Just the basic facts.
Can you show me where it hurts?

https://trello.com/schveiguy



----- Original Message -----
> From: Andrei Alexandrescu <andrei at erdani.com>
> To: Discuss the phobos library for D <phobos at puremagic.com>
> Cc:
> Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 3:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [phobos] [dmd-internals] Planning software?
> 
> On 1/17/12 11:34 AM, Brad Roberts wrote:
>>  IMHO, we've got plenty of tools in our mix we just don't use them
> well.
>> 
>>  Bugzilla already has several dimensions of scheduling, including severity,
> priority, and milestones.? Additionally, it's
>>  probably way overdue to apply more structure to the products/components.? I
> know it's something Don has advocated before.
>> 
>>  Wiki is a good document collaboration tool.
>> 
>>  The DLang website is a good communication tool, as are the
> newsgroups/mailing lists.
>> 
>>  Between bugzilla for fine grained categorization of
> issues/enhancements/whatever and a page on the website to state high
>>  level goals, I'm not sure what else we really need.
>> 
>>  I absolutely agree that we need to have a better roadmap and to execute on
> it, just not that another tool is needed or
>>  useful.
> 
> I understand your concern (expanded in your other messages). Let's, however, not derail the discussion into a false choice. Yes, we do have tools we don't use. That doesn't mean we should stop looking at _other_ tools that may be more adequate tools for our needs.
> 
> So the proof that we don't use bugzilla votes or priorities does not prove e.g. trello.com would not be useful.
> 
> I think we have two good proposals. One is trello.com, the other is github's new tools. The github chain does not seem very mature, but integration and potential are definitely important.
> 
> Could you guys make trello.com accounts so we find each other there? Let's give it a whirl.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Andrei
> _______________________________________________
> phobos mailing list
> phobos at puremagic.com
> http://lists.puremagic.com/mailman/listinfo/phobos
> 

On 1/19/12 3:44 AM, Leandro Lucarella wrote:
> They didn't get participation from adding more tools. I don't know where do you get the idea that adding more tools will bring more people.

I don't you where _you_ get that idea. What I'm saying is simply that better organization improves productivity.

> Also,
> you're still associating "new tool" == "better organization" and my
> point is exactly that that's not true.

We've tried the grassroots "hey, let's do X from now on, mmkay?" many times. It doesn't work. We need more structure.

>>> Anyway, I will just shut up because I have no idea about what is Trello about and have no information whatsoever about do you plan to use it (is there any place where I can find this discussion?). If bugzilla will **really** stay the same (I wish it would get much better though, maybe that's why you feel like you need another tool), I will not complain anymore (same if it get *replaced* by a better alternative for that matter).
>>
>> If you have no idea what Trello is about, isn't that a bit incongruent with the confidence with which you're sure I'm wrong?
>
> No, I'm just telling you about counter-examples. That's all I need to refute your reasoning :) (about the **need** for a new tool to get better organization, again, I do agree that we need better organization to grow, I don't agree about the means to get the better organization).

Well what means do you propose? You did little more in this discussion than contradicting things I said.

What steps can we take to get better at organizing D's development?


Andrei

On 1/19/12 3:40 AM, Leandro Lucarella wrote:
>> http://d.puremagic.com/issues/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&target_milestone=2.058
>>
>> (created by going to the search page and selecting the target milestone, leaving everything else at the default values)
>>
>> Feel free (in fact encouraged) to explore the feature a bit.  I made you an administrator so you can see the admin link which contains, among other things, the product edit page which contains the components, versions, and milestones.
>
> Also, you can save searches, so you can easily go to that "boards" with just one click. IIRC, you can even save a search that's available for everyone, to give a specific search more visibility.

Am I allowed to not be impressed about this _at_ _all_? The features I'm being shown bear no resemblance to what I think we need.

Andrei

Given that this hasn't made much progress, perhaps a simple wiki page would do for now? It could look something like:

= Task List =
 * Link to task 1 wiki page
 * Link to task 2 wiki page

= dmd 2.058 =
 Feature/bug freeze/beta 1 date: 12/3/4
 Estimated release date : 4/3/2
 * Link to task 1

= Task 1 wiki page =
 * Discussion at <link>
 * Related bug: <link>

And so on. It's obviously not the fanciest solution, it doesn't need any new tools though and it does the job.

On 17 January 2012 15:19, Andrei Alexandrescu <andrei at erdani.com> wrote:

> Hello,
>
>
> Walter and I were thinking of considering a sort of project planning software, i.e. one that tracks high-level tasks, goals, and milestones.
>
> Currently we have bugzilla for issue tracking, which is good for bugs and small enhancement requests. Then we have github which is excellent for revision tracking and such.
>
> What we currently lack is a sort of a higher level tool that helps us make plans together, order work items by urgency and importance, and share with the community what our goals and milestones are.
>
> Would you want to use such a tool, assuming of course it actually helps us? And, before I start asking around, do you know of such a tool?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Andrei
> ______________________________**_________________
> dmd-internals mailing list
> dmd-internals at puremagic.com
> http://lists.puremagic.com/**mailman/listinfo/dmd-internals<http://lists.puremagic.com/mailman/listinfo/dmd-internals>
>



-- 
Robert
http://octarineparrot.com/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.puremagic.com/pipermail/dmd-internals/attachments/20120119/96bde806/attachment.html>