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ARM first & default LDC
Dec 14, 2020
9il
Dec 14, 2020
Ferhat Kurtulmuş
Dec 14, 2020
M.M.
Dec 14, 2020
Daniel Kozak
Dec 14, 2020
Daniel Kozak
Dec 14, 2020
Abdulhaq
Dec 14, 2020
IGotD-
Dec 14, 2020
Max Haughton
Dec 14, 2020
IGotD-
Dec 14, 2020
Guillaume Piolat
Dec 14, 2020
Iain Buclaw
Dec 14, 2020
Max Haughton
Dec 14, 2020
H. S. Teoh
Dec 14, 2020
Max Samukha
Dec 14, 2020
H. S. Teoh
Dec 17, 2020
Walter Bright
Dec 17, 2020
Walter Bright
Dec 17, 2020
claptrap
Dec 17, 2020
Paulo Pinto
Dec 17, 2020
9il
Dec 17, 2020
claptrap
Dec 17, 2020
Guillaume Piolat
Dec 17, 2020
claptrap
Dec 17, 2020
H. S. Teoh
Dec 17, 2020
Adam D. Ruppe
Dec 17, 2020
Max Haughton
Dec 17, 2020
Walter Bright
Dec 17, 2020
Guillaume Piolat
Dec 18, 2020
Walter Bright
Dec 17, 2020
Walter Bright
Dec 18, 2020
claptrap
Dec 19, 2020
aberba
Dec 19, 2020
aberba
Dec 19, 2020
claptrap
Dec 19, 2020
Max Haughton
Dec 19, 2020
Timon Gehr
Dec 19, 2020
Max Haughton
Dec 19, 2020
Max Haughton
Dec 19, 2020
IGotD-
Dec 20, 2020
Calvin P
Dec 29, 2020
Laeeth Isharc
Dec 30, 2020
Walter Bright
Dec 30, 2020
Paulo Pinto
Dec 30, 2020
Iain Buclaw
Dec 30, 2020
Max Haughton
Dec 30, 2020
Max Haughton
Dec 30, 2020
Max Haughton
Dec 30, 2020
claptrap
Dec 30, 2020
Max Haughton
Dec 30, 2020
Max Haughton
Dec 30, 2020
Iain Buclaw
Dec 30, 2020
Max Haughton
Dec 31, 2020
Walter Bright
Dec 31, 2020
Max Haughton
Dec 31, 2020
Walter Bright
Dec 31, 2020
Max Haughton
Dec 31, 2020
Walter Bright
Dec 19, 2020
Adam D. Ruppe
Dec 20, 2020
0xEAB
Dec 19, 2020
Jeeferson
Dec 19, 2020
Jeeferson
Dec 20, 2020
Timon Gehr
Dec 30, 2020
Imperatorn
Dec 30, 2020
Imperatorn
Dec 20, 2020
Timon Gehr
Dec 20, 2020
claptrap
Dec 17, 2020
Dibyendu Majumdar
Dec 19, 2020
Kali
Dec 19, 2020
Walter Bright
Dec 14, 2020
9il
Dec 14, 2020
Iain Buclaw
Dec 14, 2020
Calvin P
Dec 14, 2020
Iain Buclaw
Dec 14, 2020
tsbockman
Dec 15, 2020
RSY
Dec 15, 2020
bachmeier
Dec 15, 2020
H. S. Teoh
Dec 30, 2020
Per Nordlöw
Dec 15, 2020
Dylan Graham
Dec 15, 2020
IGotD-
Dec 15, 2020
9il
Dec 15, 2020
Dylan Graham
Dec 15, 2020
Max Haughton
Dec 15, 2020
Iain Buclaw
Dec 15, 2020
Calvin P
Dec 15, 2020
Adam D. Ruppe
Dec 16, 2020
Iain Buclaw
Dec 15, 2020
9il
Dec 15, 2020
H. S. Teoh
Dec 15, 2020
twk
Dec 16, 2020
Max Haughton
Dec 16, 2020
Iain Buclaw
Dec 16, 2020
Max Haughton
Dec 17, 2020
Walter Bright
Dec 17, 2020
Iain Buclaw
Dec 17, 2020
Walter Bright
Dec 16, 2020
Patrick Schluter
Dec 15, 2020
Dylan Graham
Dec 15, 2020
Guillaume Piolat
Dec 31, 2020
James Blachly
Jan 03, 2021
James Blachly
December 14, 2020
ARM is going to conquer laptop and PC markets in the next few years.

Making LDC a default compiler looks like a more rational solution. By default, I mean a branch where we do the main work on the compiler and DRuntime and what is used to make the first release of the new version of the compiler.

I just realized why we still have DMD as the default compiler and why probably we would have it in the near future.

D Foundation wants to have full power to make all key decisions. Making LDC a default compiler would also mean they would need to share their authority with others. That is only my opinion, I don't pretend it is right.

Kind regards,
Ilya

December 14, 2020
On Monday, 14 December 2020 at 04:35:31 UTC, 9il wrote:
> ARM is going to conquer laptop and PC markets in the next few years.
>
> Making LDC a default compiler looks like a more rational solution. By default, I mean a branch where we do the main work on the compiler and DRuntime and what is used to make the first release of the new version of the compiler.
>
> I just realized why we still have DMD as the default compiler and why probably we would have it in the near future.
>
> D Foundation wants to have full power to make all key decisions. Making LDC a default compiler would also mean they would need to share their authority with others. That is only my opinion, I don't pretend it is right.
>
> Kind regards,
> Ilya

+1
December 14, 2020
On Monday, 14 December 2020 at 04:35:31 UTC, 9il wrote:
> ARM is going to conquer laptop and PC markets in the next few years.
>
> Making LDC a default compiler looks like a more rational solution. By default, I mean a branch where we do the main work on the compiler and DRuntime and what is used to make the first release of the new version of the compiler.
>
> I just realized why we still have DMD as the default compiler and why probably we would have it in the near future.
>
> D Foundation wants to have full power to make all key decisions. Making LDC a default compiler would also mean they would need to share their authority with others. That is only my opinion, I don't pretend it is right.
>
> Kind regards,
> Ilya

There are several points you made in your comment. I freely paraphrase the content:
i) ARM will dominate the consumer laptop market in the short future
ii) make LDC the compiler where language development happens (and other compilers take it from there)
iii) allow a more decentralized work on the default D compiler (currently dmd)

I agree that these are interesting points to discuss; yet I also think that they do not necessarily depend on each other(?), and they are interesting discussion points on their own.

Ad i): this might indeed be true (as observed by the efforts of Microsoft several years ago with their operating system, and currently with the success of the apple M1 processor), yet there are also open-source efforts on the horizon (risc-v and power), but I agree this battle might be decided in the next 1-2 years.

Ad ii): isn't it that having dmd the development branch allows GDC and LDC to follow? Also, why would one prefer LDC over GDC? GDC is part of GCC, which is huge. I think here an opinion from the compiler maintainers/developers is needed, and I would be delighted to  hear their (even very short) opinion.

Ad iii): Isn't it true that contributions to dmd are welcome? Are there technical obstacles in contributing? Philosophical ones?
December 14, 2020
On Mon, Dec 14, 2020 at 5:40 AM 9il via Digitalmars-d < digitalmars-d@puremagic.com> wrote:

> ARM is going to conquer laptop and PC markets in the next few years.
>

Yes, that is something I can agree with. But it will take 3-5 years.


> Making LDC a default compiler looks like a more rational solution. By default, I mean a branch where we do the main work on the compiler and DRuntime and what is used to make the first release of the new version of the compiler.
>

No, I do not see any benefit from this.


> I just realized why we still have DMD as the default compiler and why probably we would have it in the near future.
>
> D Foundation wants to have full power to make all key decisions. Making LDC a default compiler would also mean they would need to share their authority with others. That is only my opinion, I don't pretend it is right.
>

If D  Foundation would selected LDC as a default compiler I believe LDC would need to accept D Foundation as their leadership


December 14, 2020
On Mon, Dec 14, 2020 at 10:22 AM Daniel Kozak <kozzi11@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 14, 2020 at 5:40 AM 9il via Digitalmars-d < digitalmars-d@puremagic.com> wrote:
>
>> ARM is going to conquer laptop and PC markets in the next few years.
>>
>
> Yes, that is something I can agree with. But it will take 3-5 years.
>

So from my POV DMD should add support for ARM64 in next few years and everything will be ok


December 14, 2020
On Monday, 14 December 2020 at 04:35:31 UTC, 9il wrote:
> ARM is going to conquer laptop and PC markets in the next few years.
>
> Making LDC a default compiler looks like a more rational solution. By default, I mean a branch where we do the main work on the compiler and DRuntime and what is used to make the first release of the new version of the compiler.
>
> I just realized why we still have DMD as the default compiler and why probably we would have it in the near future.
>
> D Foundation wants to have full power to make all key decisions. Making LDC a default compiler would also mean they would need to share their authority with others. That is only my opinion, I don't pretend it is right.
>
> Kind regards,
> Ilya

I think you're mixing up two things here.

DMD is Walter's baby and he's going to continue with that, having power over it is secondary to that.

D Foundation of course want to retain control over what they have built, it's years and years of their hard work, decades even. Why should they give control to someone else and why think that that other group would do any better? Arguably it would be irresponsible to do that.

December 14, 2020
On Monday, 14 December 2020 at 09:57:05 UTC, Abdulhaq wrote:
>
> I think you're mixing up two things here.
>
> DMD is Walter's baby and he's going to continue with that, having power over it is secondary to that.
>
> D Foundation of course want to retain control over what they have built, it's years and years of their hard work, decades even. Why should they give control to someone else and why think that that other group would do any better? Arguably it would be irresponsible to do that.

There is one thing that worries me. GCC and LLVM contains primitives for optimizations and help for certain features. These primitives are often complicated and takes time to duplicate in the DMD backend. The result is that D will not use the helpful primitives in LLVM and therefore skip certain features that would otherwise be simpler to implement.

The DMD backend might be Walter's darling but what if he could move to LLVM, discover all the helpful primitives which perhaps increase the productivity and new ideas might emerge. It's a selling point.
December 14, 2020
On Monday, 14 December 2020 at 04:35:31 UTC, 9il wrote:
> ARM is going to conquer laptop and PC markets in the next few years.
>
> Making LDC a default compiler looks like a more rational solution.

Why does there have to be a default compiler?

December 14, 2020
On Monday, 14 December 2020 at 10:48:43 UTC, IGotD- wrote:
> On Monday, 14 December 2020 at 09:57:05 UTC, Abdulhaq wrote:
>> [...]
>
> There is one thing that worries me. GCC and LLVM contains primitives for optimizations and help for certain features. These primitives are often complicated and takes time to duplicate in the DMD backend. The result is that D will not use the helpful primitives in LLVM and therefore skip certain features that would otherwise be simpler to implement.
>
> The DMD backend might be Walter's darling but what if he could move to LLVM, discover all the helpful primitives which perhaps increase the productivity and new ideas might emerge. It's a selling point.

What optimisation primitives?
December 14, 2020
On Monday, 14 December 2020 at 12:54:23 UTC, Max Haughton wrote:
> On Monday, 14 December 2020 at 10:48:43 UTC, IGotD- wrote:
>> On Monday, 14 December 2020 at 09:57:05 UTC, Abdulhaq wrote:
>>> [...]
>>
>> There is one thing that worries me. GCC and LLVM contains primitives for optimizations and help for certain features. These primitives are often complicated and takes time to duplicate in the DMD backend. The result is that D will not use the helpful primitives in LLVM and therefore skip certain features that would otherwise be simpler to implement.
>>
>> The DMD backend might be Walter's darling but what if he could move to LLVM, discover all the helpful primitives which perhaps increase the productivity and new ideas might emerge. It's a selling point.
>
> What optimisation primitives?

One recent example are the LLVM primitives for coroutines posted in this thread. Look at the seminar video.
https://forum.dlang.org/thread/rr0jju$eub$1@digitalmars.com
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