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July 19, 2004
W3C I18N Rechartering
The latest from those fun-loving guys at the W3C...
(Full text posted to the Unicode public forum by the W3C).

====================================================================

<snip>

----- New Core Work -----
The core working group's draft charter includes some new work items. These are
generally related to the findings of the current Web Services Task Force:

<snip>

2. Locale and Language Identifiers on the Web. Recent IETF activity is in the
process of replacing the existing standard for language identifiers (RFC 3066),
which has been widely cited in W3C specifications (HTML lang, XML xml:lang, XML
Schema, XML Query, RDF, and many others). The changes in the RFC on which these
are based require that policies and guidelines be developed for current and
future specifications.  In addition, in order to enable multi-locale operation
of Web services and to create a locale negotiation layer for them, there needs
to be a standardized method for identifying locales and locale preferences on
the Internet.

Deliverable: Develop a guidelines document for incorporating the RFC 3066
replacement into W3C technologies to be published as a Note. 
Deliverable: Develop a specification for locale identification on the Web and
promote to Candidate Recommendation status.

3. Collation Identifiers. W3C technologies have struggled with the problem of
collation, sorting, and ordering on the Web. These efforts have been hampered by
lack of a clear, open, consistent, and standardized way of referring to
collation sequences. Efforts to produce an Internet-Draft need to be
re-energized

Deliverable: Coordinate efforts to develop an Internet-Draft and submit to the
IESG on the IETF Standards Track.

<snip>

Addison P. Phillips
Director, Globalization Architecture
webMethods | Delivering Global Business Visibility
http://www.webMethods.com
Chair, W3C Internationalization (I18N) Working Group
Chair, W3C-I18N-WG, Web Services Task Force
http://www.w3.org/International

Internationalization is an architecture. 
It is not a feature.

====================================================================

I will keep an eye on this. The bit where it says: "Recent IETF activity is in
the process of replacing the existing standard for language identifiers" is
especially interesting for us.

Arcane Jill
July 20, 2004
Re: W3C I18N Rechartering
no offense, but, uhhh..... did you invent unicode, or something?  you seem
pretty attached to it.
July 20, 2004
Re: W3C I18N Rechartering
In article <cdjstk$1r79$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Jarrett Billingsley says...
>
>no offense, but, uhhh..... did you invent unicode, or something?  you seem
>pretty attached to it.

Please don't give AJ a hard time. She's already in a bad mood today.

I don't know much about Unicode, but I'm sure that its popularity (and
necessity) will continue to increase as the world becomes more interconnected.
There are quite a few fans of Unicode hanging around this newsgroup. There's no
need to single anyone out.

jcc7
July 20, 2004
Re: W3C I18N Rechartering
ouch! I know you said "no offense" but, uhhh, it sounds accusatory to me. I
hope Arcane Jill doesn't get ticked off at us that she goes away. I'm glad
she "attached" to unicode or D or whatever.

"Jarrett Billingsley" <kb3ctd2@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:cdjstk$1r79$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> no offense, but, uhhh..... did you invent unicode, or something?  you seem
> pretty attached to it.
>
>
July 20, 2004
Re: W3C I18N Rechartering
i said "no offsense" for a reason :(  please don't take it the wrong way!
i'm just wondering why jill is so interested in unicode, that's all!
honestly!
July 20, 2004
Re: W3C I18N Rechartering
In article <cdjstk$1r79$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Jarrett Billingsley says...
>
>no offense, but, uhhh..... did you invent unicode, or something?  you seem
>pretty attached to it.

Frankly, I'm very glad that between AJ and Hauke we have some quite capable
Unicode folks.  Internationalization is a very important but complicated and
often ignored issue, and it will be quite a selling point if D can get it right
the first time around.  I've peronally found AJ's references and such to be very
useful, especially since they inspire me to read up on new things :)


Sean
July 20, 2004
Re: W3C I18N Rechartering
Jarrett Billingsley wrote:
> i said "no offsense" for a reason :(  please don't take it the wrong way!
> i'm just wondering why jill is so interested in unicode, that's all!
> honestly!

Standards, man.

Unicode provides a very good standard to manage text that makes use of
international characters.  Sure, most european encodings allow you to 
write spanish, italian, etc.  But they don't usually include greek and 
russian, etc.

The best of all worlds will allow all major known character sets to be 
represented with one encoding.  Including the far eastern languages.

Unicode is much bigger than D.  We should all be happy about it, and 
support it to the best of our abilities.
July 20, 2004
Re: W3C I18N Rechartering
In article <cdjstk$1r79$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Jarrett Billingsley says...
>
>no offense, but, uhhh..... did you invent unicode, or something?  you seem
>pretty attached to it.

Actually, the original post of this thread wasn't about Unicode at all, it was
about ISO language and country codes, and was an extract of some sort of press
release from the W3C. I lurk on the Unicode public forum (and post rarely, and
then mostly with questions), and that's where I encountered the W3C statement. I
thought the W3C statement might be worth mentioning here because locales are
under discussion now (or were, when I posted that).

I'm not especially attached to Unicode. I know enough about it to know it's not
perfect, full of all sorts of redundancies, characters that got inserted for
historical or legacy reasons, and so on. There are also characters that got
rejected which I think should have been accepted (e.g. the Klingon alphabet).
And then there was the whole debacle about originally defining it as sixteen
bits wide and then realizing that wasn't going to be enough - a total cock-up by
anyone's standards. Even the Consortium agree that if Unicode were to be
designed from scratch today, it would be very different. BUT - it's the only
worldwide character standard we have, and there isn't likely to be another one
in the foreseeable future (because general opinion is that we don't need two
conflicting worldwide standards). So we live with its flaws.

But these guys are hot on the localization issue. For example, right now they
are discussing (among other things) some esoteric stuff about
accent-ignorability for fuzzy-string-matching in Indic scripts. The contributors
to such discussions include native speakers (often representing national
governments or committees) and so generally can be assumed to be giving good
advice to the Consortium. In short, their data is likely to be more reliable
than, say, ripping source code off from what other computer languages have done!

Plus I've implemented some Unicode algorithms before (badly), and learned enough
from those mistakes not to make them again.

Does that help?

Jill
July 20, 2004
Re: W3C I18N Rechartering
In article <cdjtsb$1ron$1@digitaldaemon.com>, J C Calvarese says...

>Please don't give AJ a hard time. She's already in a bad mood today.

True, but I should apologize for misplaced blame. I haven't quite got the hang
of bereavement yet. Yesterday I was fine and happy, the world and the D forum
looked fun, and life felt good. Today the whole atmosphere of the world seemed
different, and everything upset me. Sorry for bringing that to the forum. I
probably came back too soon, but, like I said, yesterday it didn't seem to be a
problem so I got overconfident.

I'm still taking a rest from writing code though (except for my employers, but
they pay me). This is probably a good thing for D as well as for me, as I'd
probably introduce lots of bugs if I tried it right now.

Anyway, I have to disappear again for a couple of days, starting tomorrow, for
the funeral, so after that you probably won't hear from me until next week.

Jill

PS. I /like/ the advice "Please don't give AJ a hard time". Can we keep it even
after I'm back to my normal self? Maybe it could go in the style guide  :)
July 21, 2004
Re: W3C I18N Rechartering
*hangs head in shame*  yes, that helps.  i'm sorry.
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