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June 03, 2005
Re: Java String vs Re: inner classes
"Walter" <newshound@digitalmars.com> wrote in message 
news:d7ngdh$1um7$1@digitaldaemon.com...
>
> "Andrew Fedoniouk" <news@terrainformatica.com> wrote in message
> news:d7m22s$5dt$1@digitaldaemon.com...
>> Typical:
>> Rectangle getWindowRect() { return new Rectangle(1,2,3,4); }
>>
>> Do you want this in D? Are you ready  to handle
>> memory defragmentation -> to implement copying GC
>> and finally to get what?
>
> But D has support for structs, which are lightweight aggregates and avoid
> the mentioned 'typical' problems.
>
>

Yes, but you are proposing to port library from language
which does not have them.

Good GUI (or any other library) for D without 'manual'
translation of code is just impossible.
Practically when I was porting mine I did cut n paste
from Java with code inspection with D in mind.
Code inspection process happens in lifecycle of any
project.
D is close enough to Java / C++ to make it happen
mor or less flawlessly. And I am not sure what
source language will be used as a source of porting:
C/C++ or Java more.
The most serious project I am getting these days is
to port some GUI project from C# :))

Java, is a server side platform these days.
In big picture GUI in Java is exotic rather than practical.

Andrew.
June 03, 2005
Re: Java String vs Re: inner classes
In article <d7ngdh$1um7$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Walter says...
>
>
>"Andrew Fedoniouk" <news@terrainformatica.com> wrote in message
>news:d7m22s$5dt$1@digitaldaemon.com...
>> Typical:
>> Rectangle getWindowRect() { return new Rectangle(1,2,3,4); }
>>
>> Do you want this in D? Are you ready  to handle
>> memory defragmentation -> to implement copying GC
>> and finally to get what?
>
>But D has support for structs, which are lightweight aggregates and avoid
>the mentioned 'typical' problems.

But structs can't have ctors, which reduces their utility IMO.  The alternative
is using classes with alloca, but I don't see that as a particularly attractive
solution.  In some respects it might be nice to have a language mechanism to
allocate classes on the stack:

Class C {}
C c = local C(...);

But sadly, this still doesn't support copy semantics, which is a limiting aspect
of classes with alloca.  Personally, I find this issue to be the most difficult
adjustment in moving from C++.  There, explicit dynamic allocations are a design
choice and happen quite rarely, while in D they're both unavoidable and quite
common.

Sean
June 03, 2005
Re: inner classes
"kris" <fu@bar.org> wrote in message news:d7h9c6$184e$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> Andrew Fedoniouk wrote:
>>
>> Walter, for D sake, do not look into Java for "the best GUI"....
>> There are too many of them out there and for many different purposes.
>> Java ones famous only by their weight :(
>
> According to whom? How can you "discuss" such things rationally with such 
> a bigoted point of view? Should we suppose Harmonia would be the best GUI? 
> Great! We'll have lots of wonderful choices!
>
> As I see it, Walter is simply opening more doors for D; for rather limited 
> cost. You, on the other hand, seem bent on maintaining the status-quo :-)
>
>
>> Start VS and start Eclipse and compare time.
>> And this not about bytecode - JavaVM these days
>> is loosing 30% from C++. It is about architecture and
>> memory management.
>
> Now that is one misleading set of statements. You're apparently 
> compounding wibbly assertion upon dodgy premise <g>
>
> All that aside; would you like to find out whether the same might be true 
> of D, or would you rather just sit and speculate idly/wildly?
>
> C'mon Andrew. Why don't you help out instead?

I am trying to help. I am trying to allude that it is good
to build walls first and only then "opening the doors" for
anybody.

> According to whom? How can you "discuss" such things rationally with such 
> a bigoted point of view? Should we suppose Harmonia would be the best GUI? 
> Great! We'll have lots of wonderful choices!

First: I've asked you and Walter many times here to
show real Java GUI application except of Eclipse.
SWT? Fine! But show please applications made on
this platform. Without, talks about porting
Java code and huge opportunities and doors in this area
are just one big puff.

Second: please, don't think that I am propaganding
Harmonia. I've told many times:
Harmonia is not for everyone and every GUI task.
It should be a set of DFL alike toolkits highly
optimized for particular platforms.
Just visit WTL news groups to get an idea what
is going on and how native GUI packages are popular.

Kris, please trust me, I am in GUI business all my life.
Java GUI dead now. Eclipse alone is just nothing if
you'll compare it with full rainbow:
http://www.atai.org/guitool/

And there is a huge crowd of people who are looking
for client side programming solutions now. The biggest
stream now is not coming from Java but suprisingly
from C# and C++.
'cause WinForms.NET failed and real Avalon GUI
will appear alive in 2011 or so.
http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2004/Sep-01.html
June 04, 2005
Re: inner classes
Andrew, I really wish I could understand what it is you want me to do (or
not do). I would avoid replying, but I don't wish you to feel your
perspective is being ignored. So ...


"Andrew Fedoniouk" <news@terrainformatica.com> wrote ...
>
> "kris" <fu@bar.org> wrote in message
news:d7h9c6$184e$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> > Andrew Fedoniouk wrote:
> >>
> >> Walter, for D sake, do not look into Java for "the best GUI"....
> >> There are too many of them out there and for many different purposes.
> >> Java ones famous only by their weight :(
> >
> > According to whom? How can you "discuss" such things rationally with
such
> > a bigoted point of view? Should we suppose Harmonia would be the best
GUI?
> > Great! We'll have lots of wonderful choices!
> >
> > As I see it, Walter is simply opening more doors for D; for rather
limited
> > cost. You, on the other hand, seem bent on maintaining the status-quo
:-)
> >
> >
> >> Start VS and start Eclipse and compare time.
> >> And this not about bytecode - JavaVM these days
> >> is loosing 30% from C++. It is about architecture and
> >> memory management.
> >
> > Now that is one misleading set of statements. You're apparently
> > compounding wibbly assertion upon dodgy premise <g>
> >
> > All that aside; would you like to find out whether the same might be
true
> > of D, or would you rather just sit and speculate idly/wildly?
> >
> > C'mon Andrew. Why don't you help out instead?
>
> I am trying to help. I am trying to allude that it is good
> to build walls first and only then "opening the doors" for
> anybody.

Walls? I thought you said it was Walter's time-management you had a beef
with? Now I'm really confused.


> > According to whom? How can you "discuss" such things rationally with
such
> > a bigoted point of view? Should we suppose Harmonia would be the best
GUI?
> > Great! We'll have lots of wonderful choices!
>
> First: I've asked you and Walter many times here to
> show real Java GUI application except of Eclipse.
> SWT? Fine! But show please applications made on
> this platform. Without, talks about porting
> Java code and huge opportunities and doors in this area
> are just one big puff.

Why should anyone show any application at all? I really don't see where that
has any bearing whatsoever. What 'huge' opportunities?

I think you're blowing thing entirely out of proportion here. It's really
simple Andrew: a number of folks feel it's worthwhile porting some Java code
over to D. End of story. Nobody's asking you to do the work, although you're
very welcome to join in if you so desire.


> Second: please, don't think that I am propaganding
> Harmonia. I've told many times:
> Harmonia is not for everyone and every GUI task.
> It should be a set of DFL alike toolkits highly
> optimized for particular platforms.
> Just visit WTL news groups to get an idea what
> is going on and how native GUI packages are popular.

What I've been working on is not intended for everyone or everything,
either. But it does have native attributes.


> Kris, please trust me, I am in GUI business all my life.
> Java GUI dead now. Eclipse alone is just nothing if
> you'll compare it with full rainbow:
> http://www.atai.org/guitool/

Let me play all this back to you. You're saying: "Kris, I'm an expert in
this field; don't waste your time and that of others; drop any ideas you
have regarding a port of Java code to D. It's just not worth it. Trust me; I
know what I'm taking about."

You may well be some kind of expert, Andrew. But you've yet to come up with
even one solid reason why I, or anyone else, should buy in. Sure; you've
said lots of things along the lines of "Java GUI dead now" or "SWT is failed
design", but that is hardly concrete or convincing, and nor is it
particularly relevant.

I'll be happy and willing to listen to you, if you can bring something more
to the table than what appears to be wholly unfounded speculative assertion.
It's not even clear what it is you wish me to do ... so you'll have to start
there.


> And there is a huge crowd of people who are looking
> for client side programming solutions now. The biggest
> stream now is not coming from Java but suprisingly
> from C# and C++.
> 'cause WinForms.NET failed and real Avalon GUI
> will appear alive in 2011 or so.
> http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2004/Sep-01.html

So ~ there's a bunch of C# and C++ developers looking for a language with a
good GUI? For Windows? Cross-platform? OK.
June 04, 2005
Re: inner classes
Andrew Fedoniouk escribió:
> 
> First: I've asked you and Walter many times here to
> show real Java GUI application except of Eclipse.
> SWT? Fine! But show please applications made on
> this platform. Without, talks about porting
> Java code and huge opportunities and doors in this area
> are just one big puff.
> 

I don't know if SWT is that bad. I don't know much about GUI libraries 
besides a handful of them. The same could be said for libraries in 
general. I understand (it's not hard to do ;)) that there're good and 
bad libraries everywhere, but I'm all for options.

Nobody can know before hand if porting some library (good or bad) to D 
will produce the same library as before: maybe it'll get better, or it 
could get worse, but it can only be known after it's been done and 
tested. So, Andrew, while I respect your opinion as much as I respect 
everyone else's, I think it's good that more libraries are ported to D. 
They can come from anywhere, they can be old or new, they can be 
anything related, but we, the D programmers, need those libraries, and 
only using them we'll know if we stick to them or not.

One example: I still think DFL is the best D GUI library right now, but 
I don't use it because it's Windows only. I follow it, but that's it. 
Portability is very high in my book, so I have to look somewhere else. 
But that's me, somebody else will think different, and that's where 
options come handy.

I think the worst mistake we as human beings can make is to think that 
we have to make everybody think like we do, think that there's only one 
absolute truth. "Only Sith(s?) think in absolutes" ;)

-- 
Carlos Santander Bernal
June 04, 2005
Re: inner classes
"Kris" <fu@bar.com> wrote in message news:d7qsq3$1kl7$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> Andrew, I really wish I could understand what it is you want me to do (or
> not do). I would avoid replying, but I don't wish you to feel your
> perspective is being ignored. So ...
>
>
> "Andrew Fedoniouk" <news@terrainformatica.com> wrote ...
>>
>> "kris" <fu@bar.org> wrote in message
> news:d7h9c6$184e$1@digitaldaemon.com...
>> > Andrew Fedoniouk wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Walter, for D sake, do not look into Java for "the best GUI"....
>> >> There are too many of them out there and for many different purposes.
>> >> Java ones famous only by their weight :(
>> >
>> > According to whom? How can you "discuss" such things rationally with
> such
>> > a bigoted point of view? Should we suppose Harmonia would be the best
> GUI?
>> > Great! We'll have lots of wonderful choices!
>> >
>> > As I see it, Walter is simply opening more doors for D; for rather
> limited
>> > cost. You, on the other hand, seem bent on maintaining the status-quo
> :-)
>> >
>> >
>> >> Start VS and start Eclipse and compare time.
>> >> And this not about bytecode - JavaVM these days
>> >> is loosing 30% from C++. It is about architecture and
>> >> memory management.
>> >
>> > Now that is one misleading set of statements. You're apparently
>> > compounding wibbly assertion upon dodgy premise <g>
>> >
>> > All that aside; would you like to find out whether the same might be
> true
>> > of D, or would you rather just sit and speculate idly/wildly?
>> >
>> > C'mon Andrew. Why don't you help out instead?
>>
>> I am trying to help. I am trying to allude that it is good
>> to build walls first and only then "opening the doors" for
>> anybody.
>
> Walls? I thought you said it was Walter's time-management you had a beef
> with? Now I'm really confused.
>

Seems indeed I want too much and went too far.
It is personal, terribly sorry.
I am forced to stop working on Harmonia today.
Three new projects requiring my full dedication.
And I cannot use D there. There were chances
but ... various reasons to be short.

>
>> > According to whom? How can you "discuss" such things rationally with
> such
>> > a bigoted point of view? Should we suppose Harmonia would be the best
> GUI?
>> > Great! We'll have lots of wonderful choices!
>>
>> First: I've asked you and Walter many times here to
>> show real Java GUI application except of Eclipse.
>> SWT? Fine! But show please applications made on
>> this platform. Without, talks about porting
>> Java code and huge opportunities and doors in this area
>> are just one big puff.
>
> Why should anyone show any application at all? I really don't see where 
> that
> has any bearing whatsoever. What 'huge' opportunities?
>
> I think you're blowing thing entirely out of proportion here. It's really
> simple Andrew: a number of folks feel it's worthwhile porting some Java 
> code
> over to D. End of story. Nobody's asking you to do the work, although 
> you're
> very welcome to join in if you so desire.

Ok. Consider me and others as a C++ guys.
We are asking for const implementation. What
will benefit D more?
Answer from heavens is one: there will be inners
instead (but not finals). And nobody willing
to explain why? Just common words: there are
somewhere some Java projects which will be
translated automatically from Java...
I know Java. I did my own VM. I am not
buying this automatic translation.
Java is a platform. Code without platform -
system of classes from lang.java etc. -
is nothing.
Moreover I've provided concrete link which will help
to try this translation without need of inners.
So anyone who have project to port can use
this tool now. Just to test is it possible at all.


>
>
>> Second: please, don't think that I am propaganding
>> Harmonia. I've told many times:
>> Harmonia is not for everyone and every GUI task.
>> It should be a set of DFL alike toolkits highly
>> optimized for particular platforms.
>> Just visit WTL news groups to get an idea what
>> is going on and how native GUI packages are popular.
>
> What I've been working on is not intended for everyone or everything,
> either. But it does have native attributes.
>
>
>> Kris, please trust me, I am in GUI business all my life.
>> Java GUI dead now. Eclipse alone is just nothing if
>> you'll compare it with full rainbow:
>> http://www.atai.org/guitool/
>
> Let me play all this back to you. You're saying: "Kris, I'm an expert in
> this field; don't waste your time and that of others; drop any ideas you
> have regarding a port of Java code to D. It's just not worth it. Trust me; 
> I
> know what I'm taking about."
>
> You may well be some kind of expert, Andrew. But you've yet to come up 
> with
> even one solid reason why I, or anyone else, should buy in. Sure; you've
> said lots of things along the lines of "Java GUI dead now" or "SWT is 
> failed
> design", but that is hardly concrete or convincing, and nor is it
> particularly relevant.

In GUI business absense of successfull applications during
5 years of development means two things:
either this technology was designed to accomplish one
particular task (SWT/Eclipse) either it is failed.
I don't know what to say more concret here.

>
> I'll be happy and willing to listen to you, if you can bring something 
> more
> to the table than what appears to be wholly unfounded speculative 
> assertion.
> It's not even clear what it is you wish me to do ... so you'll have to 
> start
> there.
>

Ok.

>
>> And there is a huge crowd of people who are looking
>> for client side programming solutions now. The biggest
>> stream now is not coming from Java but suprisingly
>> from C# and C++.
>> 'cause WinForms.NET failed and real Avalon GUI
>> will appear alive in 2011 or so.
>> http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2004/Sep-01.html
>
> So ~ there's a bunch of C# and C++ developers looking for a language with 
> a
> good GUI? For Windows? Cross-platform? OK.
>

Yep.
June 04, 2005
Re: Java String vs Re: inner classes
"Sean Kelly" <sean@f4.ca> wrote in message 
news:d7qbg0$14qp$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> In article <d7ngdh$1um7$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Walter says...
>>
>>
>>"Andrew Fedoniouk" <news@terrainformatica.com> wrote in message
>>news:d7m22s$5dt$1@digitaldaemon.com...
>>> Typical:
>>> Rectangle getWindowRect() { return new Rectangle(1,2,3,4); }
>>>
>>> Do you want this in D? Are you ready  to handle
>>> memory defragmentation -> to implement copying GC
>>> and finally to get what?
>>
>>But D has support for structs, which are lightweight aggregates and avoid
>>the mentioned 'typical' problems.
>
> But structs can't have ctors, which reduces their utility IMO.  The 
> alternative
> is using classes with alloca, but I don't see that as a particularly 
> attractive
> solution.  In some respects it might be nice to have a language mechanism 
> to
> allocate classes on the stack:
>
> Class C {}
> C c = local C(...);
>
> But sadly, this still doesn't support copy semantics, which is a limiting 
> aspect
> of classes with alloca.  Personally, I find this issue to be the most 
> difficult
> adjustment in moving from C++.  There, explicit dynamic allocations are a 
> design
> choice and happen quite rarely, while in D they're both unavoidable and 
> quite
> common.

Yep. This one second for me too (after const).

>
> Sean
>
>
June 04, 2005
Re: inner classes
> Seems indeed I want too much and went too far.
> It is personal, terribly sorry.
> I am forced to stop working on Harmonia today.
> Three new projects requiring my full dedication.
> And I cannot use D there. There were chances
> but ... various reasons to be short.

I hope it's temporary. Harmonia is very impressive.
June 04, 2005
Re: inner classes
Andrew...
*snip* I am forced to stop working on Harmonia today.

We all have our own ideas for D man, but patience is allot more useful 
than giving up. But, if you have other projects that need attention, I 
do wish you good luck with them.

Between this and TZ, I am starting to think that this is the Drama 
programming language... :) (c'mon, that's funny!)

I LOVE D!

-- 
Thanks,
Trevor Parscal
www.trevorparscal.com
trevorparscal@hotmail.com
June 04, 2005
Re: inner classes
"Andrew Fedoniouk" <news@terrainformatica.com> wrote
> Ok. Consider me and others as a C++ guys.
> We are asking for const implementation. What
> will benefit D more?

Regarding a const implementation: I'm afraid you're just gonna' have to get
over that, Andrew. I've been asking for a readonly modifier for about a year
now, and there were probably others before me. This is not some kind of new
request, by any stretch of the imagination. It'll happen when it happens.


> Answer from heavens is one: there will be inners
> instead (but not finals). And nobody willing
> to explain why? Just common words: there are
> somewhere some Java projects which will be
> translated automatically from Java...
> I know Java. I did my own VM. I am not
> buying this automatic translation.
> Java is a platform. Code without platform -
> system of classes from lang.java etc. -
> is nothing.

I see.

So place a wager, then.

If you're so adament that it's simply not possible to port a major Java
library to D without some serious hand-waving and serious manual
intervention, then put some clout behind those claims of yours. Let's just
see how much value all this expertise and knowledge of yours is really worth
:-)
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