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May 20, 2012
Re: Posix vs. Windows
Am 20.05.2012 07:43, schrieb H. S. Teoh:
> [...]
>> That said, some editors, like Sublime Text 2 (my current favorite)
>> have a vi mode that functions pretty closely to how vi does. It's
>> another way to ease your way into the vi mindset, as it were.
>> Personally, I know enough vi to get around but not enough to prefer
>> it. It's simy a matter of necessity though, as vi is the only editor
>> I've found installed on every system I need to edit on. Too bad it
>> couldn't at least be vim though.
>
> Ugh. Plain vi (non-vim) is a bear to use. Many non-vim vi's have an undo
> buffer with a depth of 1. And it just goes downhill from there. :-P
>
> But at least, once you've eased into the vim mindset, you can navigate
> around inferior vi's without stumbling into electric fences and stubbing
> your toes.
>
>
> T
>

One thing I hate is visiting customers which have UNIX installations 
configured with their default installs.

Depending on the operating system version, sometimes I feel like I am
back in 197x, with the original versions of vi, sh, sed, and so on.

The people that only have GNU/Linux or BSD experience, don't have any
idea how spoiled they are when compared with the commercial UNIX vendors 
offerings.

--
Paulo
May 20, 2012
Re: Posix vs. Windows
On Sun, May 20, 2012 at 07:59:49AM +0200, Paulo Pinto wrote:
[...]
> One thing I hate is visiting customers which have UNIX installations
> configured with their default installs.
> 
> Depending on the operating system version, sometimes I feel like I am
> back in 197x, with the original versions of vi, sh, sed, and so on.
> 
> The people that only have GNU/Linux or BSD experience, don't have any
> idea how spoiled they are when compared with the commercial UNIX
> vendors offerings.
[...]

Commercial Unixen have been on the decline for the last 2 decades
(probably more).

I remember having to work with Solaris in my first job. I had the
dubious pleasure of working with its packaging system once, and ...

Let's put it this way: I first started using Linux back in the day when
you had to download packages manually and sort out all package
dependencies by hand. Get just _one_ package with the wrong version, and
you have a broken system. Lots of roundtrips on sneakernet. Imagine the
horror of that. Now, that was actually a _pleasure_ in comparison with
the Solaris package manager.  That's how horrible it was. It doesn't
keep track of files (what is a package manager _for_ again?!): it
liberally overwrites files from different packages, leaves random files
lying around after removing packages which causes all sorts of conflicts
with future package installations, has no usable version tracking to
speak of, and in general is such a horrible train wreck you might as
well be installing the entire system from tarballs instead (you'd
probably have an easier time). It's all the horror of Windows without
Install Shield, minus the eye-candy, and without the option to reinstall
the entire OS when things screw up horribly (because usually it's
running on a critical production server that can't afford to go down).

And today Linux is actually making its way onto non-technical user's
desktops (e.g. Ubuntu), with automated installs, one-command upgrade
between _major_ OS releases, autodetected system configuration (e.g.,
X11)?  It's the difference between north pole and south pole. Commercial
Unixen for all practical purposes are as dead as can be, waiting for the
final nails to be driven into their collective coffins.


T

-- 
PNP = Plug 'N' Pray
May 21, 2012
Re: Posix vs. Windows
On Sunday, 20 May 2012 at 14:57:21 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:
> On Sun, May 20, 2012 at 07:59:49AM +0200, Paulo Pinto wrote:
> [...]
>> One thing I hate is visiting customers which have UNIX 
>> installations
>> configured with their default installs.
>> 
>> Depending on the operating system version, sometimes I feel 
>> like I am
>> back in 197x, with the original versions of vi, sh, sed, and 
>> so on.
>> 
>> The people that only have GNU/Linux or BSD experience, don't 
>> have any
>> idea how spoiled they are when compared with the commercial 
>> UNIX
>> vendors offerings.
> [...]
>
> Commercial Unixen have been on the decline for the last 2 
> decades
> (probably more).
>
> I remember having to work with Solaris in my first job. I had 
> the
> dubious pleasure of working with its packaging system once, and 
> ...
>
> Let's put it this way: I first started using Linux back in the 
> day when
> you had to download packages manually and sort out all package
> dependencies by hand. Get just _one_ package with the wrong 
> version, and
> you have a broken system. Lots of roundtrips on sneakernet. 
> Imagine the
> horror of that. Now, that was actually a _pleasure_ in 
> comparison with
> the Solaris package manager.  That's how horrible it was. It 
> doesn't
> keep track of files (what is a package manager _for_ again?!): 
> it
> liberally overwrites files from different packages, leaves 
> random files
> lying around after removing packages which causes all sorts of 
> conflicts
> with future package installations, has no usable version 
> tracking to
> speak of, and in general is such a horrible train wreck you 
> might as
> well be installing the entire system from tarballs instead 
> (you'd
> probably have an easier time). It's all the horror of Windows 
> without
> Install Shield, minus the eye-candy, and without the option to 
> reinstall
> the entire OS when things screw up horribly (because usually 
> it's
> running on a critical production server that can't afford to go 
> down).
>
> And today Linux is actually making its way onto non-technical 
> user's
> desktops (e.g. Ubuntu), with automated installs, one-command 
> upgrade
> between _major_ OS releases, autodetected system configuration 
> (e.g.,
> X11)?  It's the difference between north pole and south pole. 
> Commercial
> Unixen for all practical purposes are as dead as can be, 
> waiting for the
> final nails to be driven into their collective coffins.
>
>
> T

Well on my part of the world commercial UNIX is pretty much alive.

Enterprise companies like a lot the type of support contracts 
they can get from UNIX vendors. Plus there are many features 
where Linux/BSD still aren't a match, like the Solaris ZFS, or 
the security zones for application sandboxing.

But thanks for your reply, it really shows how the life in real 
UNIX land looks like, for those that only know GNU/Linux and BSD.

--
Paulo
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