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October 13, 2005
Titan
So, I am starting this project.. Titan... Its a kernel in D.. I hope it to be
very high performance, with garbage collection, and be able to execute several
common executable formats.

If you are interested in helping, let me know... I put in a request for a
dsource project page..

I look forward to working with some others on this.. Its a bit large for me to
do alone...

Thanks,
Trevor Parscal
trevorparscal@hotmail.com
October 13, 2005
Re: Titan
Trevor Parscal wrote:
> So, I am starting this project.. Titan... Its a kernel in D.. I hope it to be
> very high performance, with garbage collection, and be able to execute several
> common executable formats.
> 
> If you are interested in helping, let me know... I put in a request for a
> dsource project page..
> 
> I look forward to working with some others on this.. Its a bit large for me to
> do alone...
> 
> Thanks,
> Trevor Parscal
> trevorparscal@hotmail.com

Sounds exciting, I would like to help.
October 13, 2005
Re: Titan
Kyle Furlong wrote:
> Trevor Parscal wrote:
> 
>> So, I am starting this project.. Titan... Its a kernel in D.. I hope 
>> it to be
>> very high performance, with garbage collection, and be able to execute 
>> several
>> common executable formats.
>>
>> If you are interested in helping, let me know... I put in a request for a
>> dsource project page..
>>
>> I look forward to working with some others on this.. Its a bit large 
>> for me to
>> do alone...
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Trevor Parscal
>> trevorparscal@hotmail.com
> 
> 
> Sounds exciting, I would like to help.

Take a look: http://unununium.org/

Maybe some ideas from this project could affect the architecture of 
Titan. Particularly interesting to me was the idea of orthogonal 
persistence.
October 13, 2005
Re: Titan
In article <diktru$1kpn$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Kyle Furlong says...
>
>Kyle Furlong wrote:
>> Trevor Parscal wrote:
>> 
>>> So, I am starting this project.. Titan... Its a kernel in D.. I hope 
>>> it to be
>>> very high performance, with garbage collection, and be able to execute 
>>> several
>>> common executable formats.
>>>
>>> If you are interested in helping, let me know... I put in a request for a
>>> dsource project page..
>>>
>>> I look forward to working with some others on this.. Its a bit large 
>>> for me to
>>> do alone...
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Trevor Parscal
>>> trevorparscal@hotmail.com
>> 
>> 
>> Sounds exciting, I would like to help.
>
>Take a look: http://unununium.org/
>
>Maybe some ideas from this project could affect the architecture of 
>Titan. Particularly interesting to me was the idea of orthogonal 
>persistence.

Very cool project - I really do think they are on the right track, as many of
those ideas are consistent with many of my own. They have some very interesting
perspectives, and are also perhaps the ONLY people I have ever seen to not try
and credit the original GUI to Mac.. They got it right, it was XEROX Parc, and
Mac ripped them off...

Thanks for the link Kyle.. Good reading..

Thanks,
Trevor Parscal
October 13, 2005
Re: Titan
Right on, I hope to help out.


But I hate the Titans - GO COLTS! :D



Trevor Parscal wrote:
> So, I am starting this project.. Titan... Its a kernel in D.. I hope it to be
> very high performance, with garbage collection, and be able to execute several
> common executable formats.
> 
> If you are interested in helping, let me know... I put in a request for a
> dsource project page..
> 
> I look forward to working with some others on this.. Its a bit large for me to
> do alone...
> 
> Thanks,
> Trevor Parscal
> trevorparscal@hotmail.com
October 13, 2005
Re: Titan
I'd love to help but please be warned: I am not a seasoned programmer. Not sure
how I can help but if there is a way, please let me know.

Andrew

In article <dikc63$9qa$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Trevor Parscal says...
>
>So, I am starting this project.. Titan... Its a kernel in D.. I hope it to be
>very high performance, with garbage collection, and be able to execute several
>common executable formats.
>
>If you are interested in helping, let me know... I put in a request for a
>dsource project page..
>
>I look forward to working with some others on this.. Its a bit large for me to
>do alone...
>
>Thanks,
>Trevor Parscal
>trevorparscal@hotmail.com
October 13, 2005
Re: Titan
In article <diktru$1kpn$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Kyle Furlong says...
>
>Kyle Furlong wrote:
>> Trevor Parscal wrote:
>> 
>>> So, I am starting this project.. Titan... Its a kernel in D.. I hope 
>>> it to be
>>> very high performance, with garbage collection, and be able to execute 
>>> several
>>> common executable formats.
>>>
>>> If you are interested in helping, let me know... I put in a request for a
>>> dsource project page..
>>>
>>> I look forward to working with some others on this.. Its a bit large 
>>> for me to
>>> do alone...
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Trevor Parscal
>>> trevorparscal@hotmail.com
>> 
>> 
>> Sounds exciting, I would like to help.
>
>Take a look: http://unununium.org/
>
>Maybe some ideas from this project could affect the architecture of 
>Titan. Particularly interesting to me was the idea of orthogonal 
>persistence.

*Especially* the bit about orthogonal persistence.  Even if not implemented in
the way the '111' guys suggest, its a powerful concept.

From the abstract, I gather that would mean that 'on-disk' and 'in-memory'
becomes almost totally transparent, with the OS performing any needed
translation between mediums.  Barring concerns of most forms of
direct-serialization being largely non-portable mediums for binary storage, it
sounds like a winner.

Trevor, any concepts for characterizing Titan outside of using exokernels?

- EricAnderton at yahoo
October 13, 2005
Re: Titan
pragma wrote:
> In article <diktru$1kpn$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Kyle Furlong says...
> 
>>Kyle Furlong wrote:
>>
>>>Trevor Parscal wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>So, I am starting this project.. Titan... Its a kernel in D.. I hope 
>>>>it to be
>>>>very high performance, with garbage collection, and be able to execute 
>>>>several
>>>>common executable formats.
>>>>
>>>>If you are interested in helping, let me know... I put in a request for a
>>>>dsource project page..
>>>>
>>>>I look forward to working with some others on this.. Its a bit large 
>>>>for me to
>>>>do alone...
>>>>
>>>>Thanks,
>>>>Trevor Parscal
>>>>trevorparscal@hotmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>>Sounds exciting, I would like to help.
>>
>>Take a look: http://unununium.org/
>>
>>Maybe some ideas from this project could affect the architecture of 
>>Titan. Particularly interesting to me was the idea of orthogonal 
>>persistence.
> 
> 
> *Especially* the bit about orthogonal persistence.  Even if not implemented in
> the way the '111' guys suggest, its a powerful concept.
> 
> From the abstract, I gather that would mean that 'on-disk' and 'in-memory'
> becomes almost totally transparent, with the OS performing any needed
> translation between mediums.  Barring concerns of most forms of
> direct-serialization being largely non-portable mediums for binary storage, it
> sounds like a winner.
> 
> Trevor, any concepts for characterizing Titan outside of using exokernels?
> 
> - EricAnderton at yahoo

Concerns about serializing objects to memory/disk in relation to 
endianness issues is no worse than how it is now, without orthogonal 
persistence.  Serialization of objects over the network can easily be 
accomplished with automatic-endian-converting stream classes for 
transferring data between different endian'd machines.  I don't think 
this is a problem when switching the clear memory vs. disk barrier to a 
transparent combined storage medium.

In fact, that is a cool concept!  A disk devoted entirely to storage... 
makes me want to write up a revision logging library for disk storage. 
Think how cool that would be - the entire OS has revision capabilities 
on everything storable.  "Application deployment and 
updatings/versionings have never been easier!"

The only barrier here is how far you're willing to take this concept. 
i.e. completely do away with specialized file formats?  or provide 
backward compatibility with said formats?  In an exokernel design, one 
could write thousands of libraries to handle each individual file format 
(much like it is now with linux libraries...there's a libSomething for 
most every type of widely-used standard file format; mp3, xml, mpg, avi, 
etc.).

Anyways... what is the scope of your operating system, Trevor?  Do you 
wish to completely revolutionize computing and do away with unnecessary 
(or maybe necessary) evils of the "old way"?  Personally, I wouldn't 
like to move to a new OS and not be able to play my MP3s ;).

Once you get the exokernel up, I'd love to take a swing at developing 
some OS libraries.
October 13, 2005
Re: Titan
In article <dim7gl$2fj0$1@digitaldaemon.com>, pragma says...
>
>In article <diktru$1kpn$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Kyle Furlong says...
>>
>>Kyle Furlong wrote:
>>> Trevor Parscal wrote:
>>> 
>>>> So, I am starting this project.. Titan... Its a kernel in D.. I hope 
>>>> it to be
>>>> very high performance, with garbage collection, and be able to execute 
>>>> several
>>>> common executable formats.
>>>>
>>>> If you are interested in helping, let me know... I put in a request for a
>>>> dsource project page..
>>>>
>>>> I look forward to working with some others on this.. Its a bit large 
>>>> for me to
>>>> do alone...
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Trevor Parscal
>>>> trevorparscal@hotmail.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sounds exciting, I would like to help.
>>
>>Take a look: http://unununium.org/
>>
>>Maybe some ideas from this project could affect the architecture of 
>>Titan. Particularly interesting to me was the idea of orthogonal 
>>persistence.
>
>*Especially* the bit about orthogonal persistence.  Even if not implemented in
>the way the '111' guys suggest, its a powerful concept.
>
>From the abstract, I gather that would mean that 'on-disk' and 'in-memory'
>becomes almost totally transparent, with the OS performing any needed
>translation between mediums.  Barring concerns of most forms of
>direct-serialization being largely non-portable mediums for binary storage, it
>sounds like a winner.
>
>Trevor, any concepts for characterizing Titan outside of using exokernels?
>
>- EricAnderton at yahoo

I am still working on the concpet, of course, but I would say that I am not
trying to just leave it at exokernel, and stop designing.. I just think that an
exokernel design pretty much gives use the modularity we would need to get
things done like garbage collection libraries, multi-format execution very
easily..

Some of the latest ideas include...

- Exokernel Design (multiple OS layers can run simultaniously)
- MultiFormat Execution (OMF, ELF, COFF, PE, etc..)
- Garbage Collection (libraries accessable to apps in different flavors)
- Trasparent Memory (the the app, memory is memory, no matter where it's at)
- Transparent Data (to an app, a network path or local drive path act the same)
- Modern Hardware Only (don't waste time supporting ainchient machines)

I am working together a presentation of sorts to outline these concepts, but, I
am still researching them, so it's not quite done...

Any ideas are very much welcome, and all offers to help are being added to a
list, you will not be forgotten...

Thanks,
Trevor Parscal
October 13, 2005
Re: Titan
In article <dim8c4$2ge7$1@digitaldaemon.com>, James Dunne says...
>
>pragma wrote:
>> In article <diktru$1kpn$1@digitaldaemon.com>, Kyle Furlong says...
>> 
>>>Kyle Furlong wrote:
>>>
>>>>Trevor Parscal wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>So, I am starting this project.. Titan... Its a kernel in D.. I hope 
>>>>>it to be
>>>>>very high performance, with garbage collection, and be able to execute 
>>>>>several
>>>>>common executable formats.
>>>>>
>>>>>If you are interested in helping, let me know... I put in a request for a
>>>>>dsource project page..
>>>>>
>>>>>I look forward to working with some others on this.. Its a bit large 
>>>>>for me to
>>>>>do alone...
>>>>>
>>>>>Thanks,
>>>>>Trevor Parscal
>>>>>trevorparscal@hotmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Sounds exciting, I would like to help.
>>>
>>>Take a look: http://unununium.org/
>>>
>>>Maybe some ideas from this project could affect the architecture of 
>>>Titan. Particularly interesting to me was the idea of orthogonal 
>>>persistence.
>> 
>> 
>> *Especially* the bit about orthogonal persistence.  Even if not implemented in
>> the way the '111' guys suggest, its a powerful concept.
>> 
>> From the abstract, I gather that would mean that 'on-disk' and 'in-memory'
>> becomes almost totally transparent, with the OS performing any needed
>> translation between mediums.  Barring concerns of most forms of
>> direct-serialization being largely non-portable mediums for binary storage, it
>> sounds like a winner.
>> 
>> Trevor, any concepts for characterizing Titan outside of using exokernels?
>> 
>> - EricAnderton at yahoo
>
>Concerns about serializing objects to memory/disk in relation to 
>endianness issues is no worse than how it is now, without orthogonal 
>persistence.  Serialization of objects over the network can easily be 
>accomplished with automatic-endian-converting stream classes for 
>transferring data between different endian'd machines.  I don't think 
>this is a problem when switching the clear memory vs. disk barrier to a 
>transparent combined storage medium.
>
>In fact, that is a cool concept!  A disk devoted entirely to storage... 
>makes me want to write up a revision logging library for disk storage. 
>Think how cool that would be - the entire OS has revision capabilities 
>on everything storable.  "Application deployment and 
>updatings/versionings have never been easier!"
>
>The only barrier here is how far you're willing to take this concept. 
>i.e. completely do away with specialized file formats?  or provide 
>backward compatibility with said formats?  In an exokernel design, one 
>could write thousands of libraries to handle each individual file format 
>(much like it is now with linux libraries...there's a libSomething for 
>most every type of widely-used standard file format; mp3, xml, mpg, avi, 
>etc.).
>
>Anyways... what is the scope of your operating system, Trevor?  Do you 
>wish to completely revolutionize computing and do away with unnecessary 
>(or maybe necessary) evils of the "old way"?  Personally, I wouldn't 
>like to move to a new OS and not be able to play my MP3s ;).
>
>Once you get the exokernel up, I'd love to take a swing at developing 
>some OS libraries.

I think that Titan should indeed do away with the "old" way of doing things..
But, I think also that playing MP3's is going to be easier on Titan, not
impossible, due to its design.

I think format handlers has long been the domain of the App.. Moving that to an
OSlib is quite an idea.. Such as, there would be a common way to get meta
information about a file. This can include ID3 tags, but to me, this is more
allong the lines of versioning and such as well.

YES, we should design a file system that can do versioning natively, meta
information seamlessly, and be immune to interal and external fragmentation
(Journaling Files Systems) ...

I want to also make the way you access files on disks the same as the way you
access network resources, so this meta information needs to be flexible enough
to carry HTTP headers for instance.

Good ideas... And yes, I would love your help.

Thanks,
Trevor Parscal
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