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December 12, 2005
Re: A safer/better C++?
Walter Bright wrote:
> "Dave" <Dave_member@pathlink.com> wrote in message
> news:dni7a9$viu$1@digitaldaemon.com...
>> After reading some of the threads, and seeing mention of D in there
> basically
>> just get ignored, it becomes apparent that one could come up with the
> better
>> mousetrap and still the very people who should take notice won't even
>> acknowledge the existance of something that quite probably is not only
> better
>> but readily available.
> 
> There is some curious psychology going on with this. I've met many well
> known C++ experts who won't say anything positive about D in public, but in
> private to me they are quite enthusiastic about it. It's almost as if they
> fear censure or loss of face?

I think it must be something like that.  I tend to agree with most of 
the c.l.c++.m group on C++ issues, but it's not often you'll see many of 
them saying anything negative about the language.  Andrei tends to be a 
refreshing exception to this apparent trend.

>> How can D break out of this situation?
> 
> The biggest thing is to write articles about D and get them published.
> Present papers on D at conferences. Continue to bring up D in contexts where
> it is appropriate. Dave - an article about performance? Kris - an article
> about Mango? Don - an article about D templates? Thomas - an article about
> your automated testing system? David - an article about implementing GDC?
> Everyone else, too, who has made important contributions to D and this n.g.
> You guys all know your stuff and these would be important, interesting
> articles.
> 
> Me, I'll be presenting at Amazon's developer conference in January and in
> SDWest in March. But D can't succeed if it's just me writing articles and
> presenting.

CUJ seems willing to accept them, so finding a forum shouldn't be 
difficult.  And Artima may be a good place to get started for those a 
bit hesitant about trying for a print publication--it's fairly well 
regarded and Chick Allison has already written that he thinks D has a 
lot of promise.

> Would it help if I offered a bounty for articles? <g>

I'd most like to see an article on template metaprogramming in D.  It's 
a hot topic in the C++ world, and D is much more elegant and powerful in 
many ways.  Free time seems to be the biggest issue for most of the 
folks on this forum, but a short article shouldnt take that long...


Sean
December 12, 2005
Re: A safer/better C++?
Kris wrote:
> "Walter Bright" <newshound@digitalmars.com> wrote
>> Would it help if I offered a bounty for articles? <g>
> 
> People are often financially motivated when there's no other truly driving 
> reason ;-)
> 
> The problem with articles is how do you "reject" contributions that are 
> really poor? Ones which might actually cause more harm than good? It's tough 
> to do that in an open-source environment without upset. Thus, a financial 
> reward for articles deemed "worthy" might be something useful, but you'd 
> probably have to make someone else "responsible" for such filtering :-)

I'm sure Walter would be willing to review any proposed articles :-) 
Writing doesn't occcur in a vaccuum, after all.


Sean
December 12, 2005
Re: A safer/better C++?
In article <dnk9mk$1ur7$1@digitaldaemon.com>, John Reimer says...
>
>Walter Bright wrote:
>
>> There is some curious psychology going on with this. I've met many well
>> known C++ experts who won't say anything positive about D in public, but in
>> private to me they are quite enthusiastic about it. It's almost as if they
>> fear censure or loss of face?
>> 
>
>Very interesting that you mention this... such "peer pressure" is 
>noticeable in the scientific community as well.  Every so often some 
>bright but hapless scientist presents research that counters prior 
>evidence on a politically loaded issue: for example, anything that even 
>hints of influencing opinion on ethics or morality or metaphysics; or 
>anything that might remotely influence popularly accepted industry -- 
>think pharmacology or immunology; or anything contrary to politically 
>popular themes -- think "green house" gas emission sources.
>

Yea - I can remember when the big threat was a new ice-age back in the '70's.
Guess what, that was also attributed to man-made pollution. Then there was the
CFC/Ozone thing in the '80's/'90's, but now most of the new evidence suggests
(after billions were spent making the refridgeration industry a lot of cash on
replacements) that it is probably mostly due to a natural cycle. Part of this
natural cycle is cooling around the South Pole, which, by-the-way, flies in the
face of one of the greatest 'threats' of global warming - melting polar ice.

I could go on - eggs and chloresterol, etc., etc., etc., but you get the
picture.

>No matter that his "unusual" results be right or true, he is derided 
>severely by his peers who support the popular opinion, whatever that may 
>be at the time (and oh how that changes).  Many of these, though few 
>they be, lose jobs, face, and position in the scientific community 
>merely for presenting objectively relevant material.  The scientific 
>community is not always the objective giant that the general public is 
>made to believe it to be.
>
>Every get tired of reading the "scientists say..." quotes?
>
>It's as if we are meant to believe there's always a wonderful consensus 
>on such matters.
>
>It's the same with D verses C++.  It's all about staying in the groove. 
>   People ignore it for two major reasons: (1) fear of moving away from 
>what's familiar and (2) fear of moving away from what's popular. They 
>don't want to lose face in front of their peers.
>
>Very few people have the guts to shake off the grip of "false", old ways 
>in order to boldly proclaim the new and the true... all alone.
>
>Cheers, Walter, for being willing to take lone way yourself.
>

What's refreshing about the D crowd is their pragmatism, and it's led by a
master pragmatist.

>-JJR
December 12, 2005
Re: A safer/better C++?
Dave wrote:
> In article <dnk9mk$1ur7$1@digitaldaemon.com>, John Reimer says...
>> Walter Bright wrote:
>>
>>> There is some curious psychology going on with this. I've met many well
>>> known C++ experts who won't say anything positive about D in public, but in
>>> private to me they are quite enthusiastic about it. It's almost as if they
>>> fear censure or loss of face?
>>>
>> Very interesting that you mention this... such "peer pressure" is 
>> noticeable in the scientific community as well.  Every so often some 
>> bright but hapless scientist presents research that counters prior 
>> evidence on a politically loaded issue: for example, anything that even 
>> hints of influencing opinion on ethics or morality or metaphysics; or 
>> anything that might remotely influence popularly accepted industry -- 
>> think pharmacology or immunology; or anything contrary to politically 
>> popular themes -- think "green house" gas emission sources.
>>
> 
> Yea - I can remember when the big threat was a new ice-age back in the '70's.
> Guess what, that was also attributed to man-made pollution. Then there was the
> CFC/Ozone thing in the '80's/'90's, but now most of the new evidence suggests
> (after billions were spent making the refridgeration industry a lot of cash on
> replacements) that it is probably mostly due to a natural cycle. Part of this
> natural cycle is cooling around the South Pole, which, by-the-way, flies in the
> face of one of the greatest 'threats' of global warming - melting polar ice.
> 


Exactly.  But you didn't hear me agree with you just now... ;-D


> I could go on - eggs and chloresterol, etc., etc., etc., but you get the
> picture.
> 
>> No matter that his "unusual" results be right or true, he is derided 
>> severely by his peers who support the popular opinion, whatever that may 
>> be at the time (and oh how that changes).  Many of these, though few 
>> they be, lose jobs, face, and position in the scientific community 
>> merely for presenting objectively relevant material.  The scientific 
>> community is not always the objective giant that the general public is 
>> made to believe it to be.
>>
>> Every get tired of reading the "scientists say..." quotes?
>>
>> It's as if we are meant to believe there's always a wonderful consensus 
>> on such matters.
>>
>> It's the same with D verses C++.  It's all about staying in the groove. 
>>   People ignore it for two major reasons: (1) fear of moving away from 
>> what's familiar and (2) fear of moving away from what's popular. They 
>> don't want to lose face in front of their peers.
>>
>> Very few people have the guts to shake off the grip of "false", old ways 
>> in order to boldly proclaim the new and the true... all alone.
>>
>> Cheers, Walter, for being willing to take lone way yourself.
>>
> 
> What's refreshing about the D crowd is their pragmatism, and it's led by a
> master pragmatist.
>


Very true.

-JJR
December 12, 2005
Re: A safer/better C++?
"John Reimer" <terminal.node@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:dnkgqi$270u$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> Dave wrote:
>
> Exactly.  But you didn't hear me agree with you just now... ;-D
>

I hereby recind my comments, as I got carried away and don't want to start 
one of those debates, at least here <g>
December 12, 2005
Re: A safer/better C++?
"John C" <johnch_atms@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:dnjmmu$14mp$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> "Walter Bright" <newshound@digitalmars.com> wrote in message
> news:dniddb$1dk0$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> What about a place where all this expertise can be shared, where people
can
> publish articles, tips and code? I'm thinking of an MSDN for D, a D
> Developers Network if you like. Community blogs are also pretty effective.
> Artima (http://www.artima.com/) might be a good model to follow.

Artima is interested in D articles. That said, there's already a D
developers network, it's this n.g.


> I'm not sure getting into CUJ is the best way - it's primarily a C++
> magazine, and while there are occasional series on other languages, how
many
> articles about D will its editors take?

CUJ is interested in D articles. They're not going to do D cover to cover,
but that's not necessary. A good article on D now and then is all that's
required.
December 12, 2005
Re: A safer/better C++?
"John Reimer" <terminal.node@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dnk9mk$1ur7$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> Cheers, Walter, for being willing to take lone way yourself.

I'm old enough to not care if I'm not on the bandwagon <g>.
December 12, 2005
Re: A safer/better C++?
"Dave" <Dave_member@pathlink.com> wrote in message
news:dnk67g$1otg$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> I don't know whether or not this would have any bearing on that group or
not,
> but maybe you could mention your experiences implementing DMD script since
this
> is publically available, non-trivial code that they could look over?

Yes, I do use this as a case study.

> On my machines, the D version is 33% (AMD) to 50% (P4) faster than the C++
> version running the included sieve.ds benchmark, and I believe you said
that it
> was implemented with a 10% reduction in lines of code along with other
> advantages.

It's about a 30% reduction in source code size.

> BTW - Does the D version also build faster?

Yes, much, though I haven't measured it.
December 13, 2005
Re: A safer/better C++?
Walter Bright wrote:
> There is some curious psychology going on with this. I've met many well
> known C++ experts who won't say anything positive about D in public, but in
> private to me they are quite enthusiastic about it. It's almost as if they
> fear censure or loss of face?
> 
> One thing D does is defy the conventional wisdom about C++. There are two
> that you mention; some others are:
> 3) C++'s non-safety is necessary to get its power and flexibility
> 4) The solution to C++ programming language problem X is to educate the
> programmers better
> 
>>So it seems D is stuck in the proverbial 'catch 22' situation here, where
> the
> 
>>real merits of the language only become apparent after learning how to use
> it,
> 
>>yet those who need to try it won't because of their (understandable)
>>assumptions...
>>
>>How can D break out of this situation?
> 
> 
> The biggest thing is to write articles about D and get them published.
> Present papers on D at conferences. Continue to bring up D in contexts where
> it is appropriate. Dave - an article about performance? Kris - an article
> about Mango? Don - an article about D templates? Thomas - an article about
> your automated testing system? David - an article about implementing GDC?
> Everyone else, too, who has made important contributions to D and this n.g.
> You guys all know your stuff and these would be important, interesting
> articles.

I intend to write a D template article, but I don't have much time, so 
it will take a while.

I'll also update my delegate/member function pointer article on 
CodeProject and put a big reference to D at the end of it. Since it 
seems to have been the most popular programming article of 2004 (the web 
page is now approaching 200 000 hits), it might direct a few people here.

I don't think D needs any marketing. It just needs more visibility. No 
one will use it if they've never heard of it.

Personally, I only discovered D when trying to create a comprehensive 
list of C++ compilers. And it was only because of a remark on a 
newsgroup by Matthew Wilson that convinced me it was worth a look.


> Me, I'll be presenting at Amazon's developer conference in January and in
> SDWest in March. But D can't succeed if it's just me writing articles and
> presenting.
> 
> Would it help if I offered a bounty for articles? <g>
> 
>
December 13, 2005
Re: A safer/better C++?
"Don Clugston" <dac@nospam.com.au> wrote in message
news:dnm162$gni$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> I'll also update my delegate/member function pointer article on
> CodeProject and put a big reference to D at the end of it. Since it
> seems to have been the most popular programming article of 2004 (the web
> page is now approaching 200 000 hits), it might direct a few people here.

Thanks!

> I don't think D needs any marketing. It just needs more visibility. No
> one will use it if they've never heard of it.

It's my experience that most programmers won't look at D the first time they
run across it, or the second time, or the tenth time. But seeing reference
to it constantly eventually convinces people that it is real, and worth
looking at.
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