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First Impressions!
Nov 28
docandrew
Nov 28
ketmar
Nov 28
ketmar
Nov 30
Kagamin
Dec 02
Joakim
[OT] Re: First Impressions!
Dec 05
Joakim
Nov 30
Dukc
Nov 30
Joakim
Dec 04
Kagamin
Nov 30
Kagamin
November 28
Hi,

I've been using D for a personal project for about two weeks now and just thought I'd share my initial impression just in case it's useful! I like feedback on things I do, so I just assume others do to. Plus my opinion is the best on the internet! You will see (hopefully the sarcasm is obvious otherwise I'll just appear pompous). It would probably be better if I did a retrospective after my project is completed, but with life who knows if that will happen. I could lose interest or something and not finish it. And then you guys wouldn't know my opinion. I can't allow that.

I'll start off by saying I like the overall experience. I come from a C# and C++ background with a little bit of C mixed in. For the most part though, I work with C#, SQL and web technologies on a day to day basis. I did do a three year stint working with C/C++ (mostly C++), but I never really enjoyed it much. C++ is overly verbose, overly complicated, overly littered with poor legacy decisions, and too error prone. C# on the other hand has for the most part been a delight. The only problem is I don't find it to be the best when it comes to generative programming. C# can do some generative programming with it's generics, but for the most part it's always struck me as more specialized for container types and to do anything remotely outside of it's purpose takes a fair bit of cleverness. I'm sick of being clever in that aspect.

So here are some impressions good and bad:

+ Porting straight C# seems pretty straight forward. Even some of the .NET framework, like files and unicode, have fairly direct counterparts in D.

+ D code so far is pushing me towards more "flat" code (for a lack of a better way to phrase it) and so far that has helped tremendously when it comes to readability. C# kind is the opposite. With it's namespace -> class -> method coupled with lock, using, etc...you tend to do a lot of nesting. You are generally 3 '{' in before any true logic even begins. Then couple that with try/catch, IDisposable/using, locking, and then if/else, it can get quite chaotic very easily. So right away, I saw my C# code actually appear more readable when I translated it and I think it has to do with the flatness. I'm not sure if that opinion will hold when I delve into 'static if' a little more, but so far my uses of it haven't really dampened that opinion.

+ Visual D. It might be that I had poor expectations of it, because I read D's tooling was poor on the internet (and nothing is ever wrong on the internet), however, the combination of Visual D and DMD actually exceeded my expectations. I've been quite happy with it. It was relatively easy to set up and worked as I would expect it to work. It lets me debug, add breakpoints, and does the basic syntax highlighting I would expect. It could have a few other features, but for a project that is not corporate backed, it was really above what I could have asked for.

+ So far, compiling is fast. And from what I hear it will stay fast. A big motivator. The one commercial C++ project I worked on was a beast and could take an hour+ to compile if you needed to compile something fundamental. C# is fairly fast, so I've grown accustomed to not having to go to the bathroom, get a drink, etc...before returning to find out I'm on the linking step. I'm used to if it doesn't take less than ten seconds (probably less) then I prep myself for an error to deal with. I want this to remain.

- Some of the errors from DMD are a little strange. I don't want to crap on this too much, because for the most part it's fine. However occasionally it throws errors I still can't really work out why THAT is the error it gave me. Some of you may have saw my question in the "Learn" forum about not knowing to use static in an embedded class, but the error was the following:

Error: 'this' is only defined in non-static member functions

I'd say the errors so far are above some of the cryptic stuff C++ can throw at you (however, I haven't delved that deeply into D templates yet, so don't hold me to this yet), but in terms of quality I'd put it somewhere between C# and C++ in quality. With C# being the ideal.

+ The standard library so far is really good. Nullable worked as I thought it should. I just guessed a few of the methods based on what I had seen at that point and got it right. So it appears consistent and intuitive. I also like the fact I can peek at the code and understand it by just reading it. Unlike with C++ where I still don't know how some of the stuff is *really* implemented. The STL almost seems like it's written in a completely different language than the stuff it enables. For instance, I figured out how to do packages by seeing it in Phobos.

- ...however, where are all of the collections? No Queue? No Stack? No HashTable? I've read that it's not a big focus because some of the built in stuff *can* behave like those things. The C# project I'm porting utilizes queues and a specifically C#'s Dictionary<> quite a bit, so I'm not looking forward to having to hand roll my own or use something that aren't fundamentally them. This is definitely the biggest negative I've come across. I want a queue, not something that *can* behave as a queue. I definitely expected more from a language that is this old.

+ Packages and 'public import'. I really think it's useful to forward imports/using statements. It kind of packages everything that is required to use that thing in your namespace/package together. So you don't have to include a dozen things. C and C++ can do this with it's #includes, but in an unsatisfactory way. At least in my opinion.

- Modules. I like modules better than #include, but I don't like them better than C#'s namespaces. Specifically I don't like how there is this gravity that kind of pulls me to associate a module with a file. It appears you don't have to, because I can do the package thing, but whenever I try to do things outside that one idiom I end up in a soup of errors. I'm sure I'm just not use to it, but so far it's been a little dissatisfying. Sometimes I want where it is physically on my file system to be different from how I include it in other source files. To me, C#'s namespaces are really the standard to beat or meet.

+ Unit tests. Finally built in unit tests. Enough said here. If the lack of collections was the biggest negative, this is the biggest positive. I would like to enable them at build time if possible though.

- Attributes. I had another post in the Learn forum about attributes which was unfortunate. At first I was excited because it seems like on the surface it would help me write better code, but it gets a little tedious and tiresome to have to remember to decorate code with them. It seems like most of them should have been the defaults. I would have preferred if the compiler helped me and reminded me. I asked if there was a way to enforce them globally, which I guess there is, but I guess there's also not a way to turn some of them off afterwards. A bit unfortunate. But at least I can see some solutions to this.

- The defaults for primitives seem off. They seem to encourage errors. I don't think that is the best design decision even if it encourages the errors to be caught as quickly as possible. I think the better decision would be to not have the errors occur. When I asked about this, there seemed to be a disassociation between the spec and the implementation. The spec says a declaration should error if not explicitly set, but the implementation just initializes them to something that is likely to error. Like NaN for floats which I would have thought would have been 0 based on prior experiences with other languages.

- Immutable. I'm not sure I fully understand it. On the surface it seemed like const but transitive. I tried having a method return an immutable value, but when I used it in my unit test I got some weird errors about objects not being able to return immutable (I forget the exact error...apologies). I refactored to use const, and it all worked as I expected, but I don't get why the immutable didn't work. I was returning a value type, so I don't see why passing in assert(object.errorCount == 0) would have triggered errors. But it did. I have a set of classes that keep track of snapshots of specific counts that seems like a perfect fit for immutable (because I don't want those 'snapshots' to change...like ever), but I kept getting errors trying to use it like const. The type string seems to be an immutable(char[]) which works exactly the way I was expecting, and I haven't ran into problems, so I'm not sure what the problem was. I'm just more confused knowing that string works, but what I did didn't.

+- Unicode support is good. Although I think D's string type should have probably been utf16 by default. Especially considering the utf module states:

"UTF character support is restricted to '\u0000' <= character <= '\U0010FFFF'."

Seems like the natural fit for me. Plus for the vast majority of use cases I am pretty guaranteed a char = codepoint. Not the biggest issue in the world and maybe I'm just being overly critical here.

+ Templates seem powerful. I've only fiddled thus far, but I don't think I've quite comprehended their usefulness yet. It will probably take me some time to figure out how to wield them effectively. One thing I accidentally stumbled upon that I liked was that I could simulate inheritance in structs with them, by using the mixin keyword. That was cool, and I'm not even sure if that is what they were really meant to enable.

So those are just some of my thoughts. Tell me why I'm wrong :P
November 28
On Tuesday, 28 November 2017 at 03:01:33 UTC, A Guy With an Opinion wrote:
>
> - ...however, where are all of the collections? No Queue? No Stack? No HashTable? I've read that it's not a big focus because some of the built in stuff *can* behave like those things. The C# project I'm porting utilizes queues and a specifically C#'s Dictionary<> quite a bit, so I'm not looking forward to having to hand roll my own or use something that aren't fundamentally them. This is definitely the biggest negative I've come across. I want a queue, not something that *can* behave as a queue. I definitely expected more from a language that is this old.
>

Good feedback overall, thanks for checking it out. You're not wrong, but some of the design decisions that feel strange to newcomers at first have been heavily-debated, generally well-reasoned, and just take some time to get used to. That sounds like a cop-out, but stick with it and I think you'll find that a lot of the decisions make sense - see the extensive discussion on NaN-default for floats, for example.

Just one note about the above comment though: the std.container.dlist doubly-linked list has methods that you can use to put together stacks and queues easily:

https://dlang.org/phobos/std_container_dlist.html

Also, D's associative arrays implement a hash map https://dlang.org/spec/hash-map.html, which I think should take care of most of C#'s Dictionary functionality.

Anyhow, D is a big language (for better and sometimes worse), so it's easy to miss some of the good nuggets buried within the spec/library.

-Doc
November 28
On 28/11/2017 3:01 AM, A Guy With an Opinion wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I've been using D for a personal project for about two weeks now and just thought I'd share my initial impression just in case it's useful! I like feedback on things I do, so I just assume others do to. Plus my opinion is the best on the internet! You will see (hopefully the sarcasm is obvious otherwise I'll just appear pompous). It would probably be better if I did a retrospective after my project is completed, but with life who knows if that will happen. I could lose interest or something and not finish it. And then you guys wouldn't know my opinion. I can't allow that.
> 
> I'll start off by saying I like the overall experience. I come from a C# and C++ background with a little bit of C mixed in. For the most part though, I work with C#, SQL and web technologies on a day to day basis. I did do a three year stint working with C/C++ (mostly C++), but I never really enjoyed it much. C++ is overly verbose, overly complicated, overly littered with poor legacy decisions, and too error prone. C# on the other hand has for the most part been a delight. The only problem is I don't find it to be the best when it comes to generative programming. C# can do some generative programming with it's generics, but for the most part it's always struck me as more specialized for container types and to do anything remotely outside of it's purpose takes a fair bit of cleverness. I'm sick of being clever in that aspect.
> 
> So here are some impressions good and bad:
> 
> + Porting straight C# seems pretty straight forward. Even some of the .NET framework, like files and unicode, have fairly direct counterparts in D.
> 
> + D code so far is pushing me towards more "flat" code (for a lack of a better way to phrase it) and so far that has helped tremendously when it comes to readability. C# kind is the opposite. With it's namespace -> class -> method coupled with lock, using, etc...you tend to do a lot of nesting. You are generally 3 '{' in before any true logic even begins. Then couple that with try/catch, IDisposable/using, locking, and then if/else, it can get quite chaotic very easily. So right away, I saw my C# code actually appear more readable when I translated it and I think it has to do with the flatness. I'm not sure if that opinion will hold when I delve into 'static if' a little more, but so far my uses of it haven't really dampened that opinion.
> 
> + Visual D. It might be that I had poor expectations of it, because I read D's tooling was poor on the internet (and nothing is ever wrong on the internet), however, the combination of Visual D and DMD actually exceeded my expectations. I've been quite happy with it. It was relatively easy to set up and worked as I would expect it to work. It lets me debug, add breakpoints, and does the basic syntax highlighting I would expect. It could have a few other features, but for a project that is not corporate backed, it was really above what I could have asked for.
> 
> + So far, compiling is fast. And from what I hear it will stay fast. A big motivator. The one commercial C++ project I worked on was a beast and could take an hour+ to compile if you needed to compile something fundamental. C# is fairly fast, so I've grown accustomed to not having to go to the bathroom, get a drink, etc...before returning to find out I'm on the linking step. I'm used to if it doesn't take less than ten seconds (probably less) then I prep myself for an error to deal with. I want this to remain.
> 
> - Some of the errors from DMD are a little strange. I don't want to crap on this too much, because for the most part it's fine. However occasionally it throws errors I still can't really work out why THAT is the error it gave me. Some of you may have saw my question in the "Learn" forum about not knowing to use static in an embedded class, but the error was the following:
> 
> Error: 'this' is only defined in non-static member functions
> 
> I'd say the errors so far are above some of the cryptic stuff C++ can throw at you (however, I haven't delved that deeply into D templates yet, so don't hold me to this yet), but in terms of quality I'd put it somewhere between C# and C++ in quality. With C# being the ideal.
> 
> + The standard library so far is really good. Nullable worked as I thought it should. I just guessed a few of the methods based on what I had seen at that point and got it right. So it appears consistent and intuitive. I also like the fact I can peek at the code and understand it by just reading it. Unlike with C++ where I still don't know how some of the stuff is *really* implemented. The STL almost seems like it's written in a completely different language than the stuff it enables. For instance, I figured out how to do packages by seeing it in Phobos.
> 
> - ...however, where are all of the collections? No Queue? No Stack? No HashTable? I've read that it's not a big focus because some of the built in stuff *can* behave like those things. The C# project I'm porting utilizes queues and a specifically C#'s Dictionary<> quite a bit, so I'm not looking forward to having to hand roll my own or use something that aren't fundamentally them. This is definitely the biggest negative I've come across. I want a queue, not something that *can* behave as a queue. I definitely expected more from a language that is this old.

Its on our TODO list.

Allocators need to come out of experimental and some form of RC before we tackle it again.

In the mean time https://github.com/economicmodeling/containers is pretty good.

> + Packages and 'public import'. I really think it's useful to forward imports/using statements. It kind of packages everything that is required to use that thing in your namespace/package together. So you don't have to include a dozen things. C and C++ can do this with it's #includes, but in an unsatisfactory way. At least in my opinion.
> 
> - Modules. I like modules better than #include, but I don't like them better than C#'s namespaces. Specifically I don't like how there is this gravity that kind of pulls me to associate a module with a file. It appears you don't have to, because I can do the package thing, but whenever I try to do things outside that one idiom I end up in a soup of errors. I'm sure I'm just not use to it, but so far it's been a little dissatisfying. Sometimes I want where it is physically on my file system to be different from how I include it in other source files. To me, C#'s namespaces are really the standard to beat or meet.

Modules are a fairly well understood concept from the ML family.
You are not use to it is all :)

Keep in mind we do have namespaces for binding to c++ code and I haven't heard of anybody abusing it for the purpose of using name spaces. They tend to be ugly hacks with ambiguity running through them. Of course I never had to use them in c++ so I'm sure somebody can give you some war stories with them ;)

> + Unit tests. Finally built in unit tests. Enough said here. If the lack of collections was the biggest negative, this is the biggest positive. I would like to enable them at build time if possible though.

I keep saying it, if you don't have unit tests built in, you don't care about code quality!

> - Attributes. I had another post in the Learn forum about attributes which was unfortunate. At first I was excited because it seems like on the surface it would help me write better code, but it gets a little tedious and tiresome to have to remember to decorate code with them. It seems like most of them should have been the defaults. I would have preferred if the compiler helped me and reminded me. I asked if there was a way to enforce them globally, which I guess there is, but I guess there's also not a way to turn some of them off afterwards. A bit unfortunate. But at least I can see some solutions to this.

You don't need to bother with them for most code :)

> - The defaults for primitives seem off. They seem to encourage errors. I don't think that is the best design decision even if it encourages the errors to be caught as quickly as possible. I think the better decision would be to not have the errors occur. When I asked about this, there seemed to be a disassociation between the spec and the implementation. The spec says a declaration should error if not explicitly set, but the implementation just initializes them to something that is likely to error. Like NaN for floats which I would have thought would have been 0 based on prior experiences with other languages.

Doesn't mean the other languages are right either.

> - Immutable. I'm not sure I fully understand it. On the surface it seemed like const but transitive. I tried having a method return an immutable value, but when I used it in my unit test I got some weird errors about objects not being able to return immutable (I forget the exact error...apologies). I refactored to use const, and it all worked as I expected, but I don't get why the immutable didn't work. I was returning a value type, so I don't see why passing in assert(object.errorCount == 0) would have triggered errors. But it did. I have a set of classes that keep track of snapshots of specific counts that seems like a perfect fit for immutable (because I don't want those 'snapshots' to change...like ever), but I kept getting errors trying to use it like const. The type string seems to be an immutable(char[]) which works exactly the way I was expecting, and I haven't ran into problems, so I'm not sure what the problem was. I'm just more confused knowing that string works, but what I did didn't.
> 
> +- Unicode support is good. Although I think D's string type should have probably been utf16 by default. Especially considering the utf module states:
> 
> "UTF character support is restricted to '\u0000' <= character <= '\U0010FFFF'."
> 
> Seems like the natural fit for me. Plus for the vast majority of use cases I am pretty guaranteed a char = codepoint. Not the biggest issue in the world and maybe I'm just being overly critical here.

That uses a lot of memory UTF-16 instead of UTF-8. I would argue for UTF-32 instead of 16.

If you need a wstring, use a wstring!

Be aware Microsoft is alone in thinking that UTF-16 was awesome. Everybody else standardized on UTF-8 for Unicode.

> + Templates seem powerful. I've only fiddled thus far, but I don't think I've quite comprehended their usefulness yet. It will probably take me some time to figure out how to wield them effectively. One thing I accidentally stumbled upon that I liked was that I could simulate inheritance in structs with them, by using the mixin keyword. That was cool, and I'm not even sure if that is what they were really meant to enable.

And that is where we use alias this instead. Do wish it was fully implemented though (multiple).


Welcome!
November 28
On Tuesday, 28 November 2017 at 03:37:26 UTC, rikki cattermole wrote:
>
> Its on our TODO list.
>
> Allocators need to come out of experimental and some form of RC before we tackle it again.
>
> In the mean time https://github.com/economicmodeling/containers is pretty good.

That's good to hear.

> I keep saying it, if you don't have unit tests built in, you don't care about code quality!
>

I just like not having to create a throwaway project to test my code. It's nice to just use unit tests for what I used to create console apps for and then it forever ensures my
code works the same!

> You don't need to bother with them for most code :)

That seems to be what people here are saying, but that seems so sad...

>
> Doesn't mean the other languages are right either.
>

That is true, but I'm still unconvinced that making the person's program likely to error is better than initializing a number to 0. Zero is such a fundamental default for so many things. And it would be consistent with the other number types.

>
> If you need a wstring, use a wstring!
>
> Be aware Microsoft is alone in thinking that UTF-16 was awesome. Everybody else standardized on UTF-8 for Unicode.
>

I do come from that world, so there is a chance I'm just comfortable with it.



November 28
A Guy With an Opinion wrote:

> That is true, but I'm still unconvinced that making the person's program likely to error is better than initializing a number to 0. Zero is such a fundamental default for so many things. And it would be consistent with the other number types.
basically, default initializers aren't meant to give a "usable value", they meant to give a *defined* value, so we don't have UB. that is, just initialize your variables explicitly, don't rely on defaults. writing:

	int a;
	a += 42;

is still bad code, even if you're know that `a` is guaranteed to be zero.

	int a = 0;
	a += 42;

is the "right" way to write it.

if you'll look at default values from this PoV, you'll see that NaN has more sense that zero. if there was a NaN for ints, ints would be inited with it too. ;-)
November 28
On Tuesday, 28 November 2017 at 04:12:14 UTC, ketmar wrote:
> A Guy With an Opinion wrote:
>
>> That is true, but I'm still unconvinced that making the person's program likely to error is better than initializing a number to 0. Zero is such a fundamental default for so many things. And it would be consistent with the other number types.
> basically, default initializers aren't meant to give a "usable value", they meant to give a *defined* value, so we don't have UB. that is, just initialize your variables explicitly, don't rely on defaults. writing:
>
> 	int a;
> 	a += 42;
>
> is still bad code, even if you're know that `a` is guaranteed to be zero.
>
> 	int a = 0;
> 	a += 42;
>
> is the "right" way to write it.
>
> if you'll look at default values from this PoV, you'll see that NaN has more sense that zero. if there was a NaN for ints, ints would be inited with it too. ;-)

Eh...I still don't agree. I think C and C++ just gave that style of coding a bad rap due to the undefined behavior. But the issue is it was undefined behavior. A lot of language features aim to make things well defined and have less verbose representations. Once a language matures that's what a big portion of their newer features become. Less verbose shortcuts of commonly done things. I agree it's important that it's well defined, I'm just thinking it should be a value that someone actually wants some notable fraction of the time. Not something no one wants ever.

I could be persuaded, but so far I'm not drinking the koolaid on that. It's not the end of the world, I was just confused when my float was NaN.
November 28
On Tuesday, 28 November 2017 at 04:17:18 UTC, A Guy With an Opinion wrote:
> On Tuesday, 28 November 2017 at 04:12:14 UTC, ketmar wrote:
>> A Guy With an Opinion wrote:
>>
>>> That is true, but I'm still unconvinced that making the person's program likely to error is better than initializing a number to 0. Zero is such a fundamental default for so many things. And it would be consistent with the other number types.
>> basically, default initializers aren't meant to give a "usable value", they meant to give a *defined* value, so we don't have UB. that is, just initialize your variables explicitly, don't rely on defaults. writing:
>>
>> 	int a;
>> 	a += 42;
>>
>> is still bad code, even if you're know that `a` is guaranteed to be zero.
>>
>> 	int a = 0;
>> 	a += 42;
>>
>> is the "right" way to write it.
>>
>> if you'll look at default values from this PoV, you'll see that NaN has more sense that zero. if there was a NaN for ints, ints would be inited with it too. ;-)
>
> Eh...I still don't agree. I think C and C++ just gave that style of coding a bad rap due to the undefined behavior. But the issue is it was undefined behavior. A lot of language features aim to make things well defined and have less verbose representations. Once a language matures that's what a big portion of their newer features become. Less verbose shortcuts of commonly done things. I agree it's important that it's well defined, I'm just thinking it should be a value that someone actually wants some notable fraction of the time. Not something no one wants ever.
>
> I could be persuaded, but so far I'm not drinking the koolaid on that. It's not the end of the world, I was just confused when my float was NaN.

Also, C and C++ didn't just have undefined behavior, sometimes it has inconsistent behavior. Sometimes int a; is actually set to 0.
November 28
On Tuesday, 28 November 2017 at 03:01:33 UTC, A Guy With an Opinion wrote:
> - Some of the errors from DMD are a little strange.

Yes, indeed, and many of them don't help much in finding the real source of your problem. I think improvements to dmd's error reporting would be the #1 productivity gain D could get right now.

> - ...however, where are all of the collections? No Queue? No Stack? No HashTable?

I always say "meh" to that because any second year student can slap those together in... well, for a second year student, maybe a couple hours for the student, but after that you're looking at just a few minutes, especially leveraging D's built in arrays and associative arrays as your foundation.

Sure, they'd be nice to have, but it isn't a dealbreaker in the slightest.

Try turning Dictionary<string, string> into D's string[string], for example.

> Sometimes I want where it is physically on my file system to be different from how I include it in other source files.

This is a common misconception, though one promoted by several of the tools: you don't actually need to match file system layout to modules.

OK, sure, D does require one module == one file. But the file name and location is not actually tied to the import name you use in code. They can be anything, you just need to pass the list of files to the compiler so it can parse them and figure out the names.

> - Attributes. I had another post in the Learn forum about attributes which was unfortunate.

Yeah, of course, from my post there you know my basic opinion on them. I've written in more detail about them elsewhere and don't feel like it tonight, but I think they are a big failure right now.... but they could be fixed if we're willing to take a few steps (#0 improve the error messages, #1 add opposites to all of them, e.g. throws and @gc, #2, change the defaults via a single declaration at the module level, #3 omg revel in how useful they are)

> - Immutable. I'm not sure I fully understand it. On the surface it seemed like const but transitive.

const is transitive too. So the difference is really that `const` means YOU won't change it, whereas `immutable` means NOBODY will change it.

What's important there is that to make something immutable, you need to prove to the compiler's satisfaction that nobody else can change it either.

const/immutable in D isn't as common as in its family of languages (C++ notably), but when you do get to use it - at least once you get to know it - it is useful.

> I was returning a value type, so I don't see why passing in assert(object.errorCount == 0) would have triggered errors.

Was the object itself immutable? I suspect you wrote something like this:

immutable int errorCount() { return ...; }


But this is a curious syntax... the `immutable` there actually applies to the *object*, not the return value! It means you can call this method on an immutable object (in fact, it means you MUST call it on an immutable object. const is the middle ground that allows you to call it on either)


immutable(int) errorCount() { return ...; }

note the parens, is how you apply it to the return value. Yes, this is kinda weird, and style guides tend to suggest putting the qualifiers after the argument list for the `this` thing instead of before... but the language allows it before, so it trips up a LOT of people like this.

> The type string seems to be an immutable(char[]) which works exactly the way I was expecting,

It is actually `immutable(char)[]`. The parens are important here - it applies to the contents of the array, but not the array itself here.

> +- Unicode support is good. Although I think D's string type should have probably been utf16 by default. Especially considering the utf module states:

Note that it has UTF-16 built in as well, with almost equal support. Put `w` at the end of a literal:

`"this literal is UTF-16"w` // notice the w after the "

and you get utf16. It considers that to be `wstring` instead of `string`, but it works basically the same.

If you are doing a lot of Windows API work, this is pretty useful!

> That was cool, and I'm not even sure if that is what they were really meant to enable.

yes, indeed. plugging my book https://www.packtpub.com/application-development/d-cookbook i talk about much of this stuff in there

November 28
A Guy With an Opinion wrote:

> Eh...I still don't agree.
anyway, it is something that won't be changed, 'cause there may be code that rely on current default values.

i'm not really trying to change your mind, i just tried to give a rationale behind the choice. that's why `char.init` is 255 too, not zero.

still, explicit variable initialization looks better for me. with default init, it is hard to say if the author just forget to initialize a variable, and it happens to work, or he knows about the default value and used it. and the reader don't have to guess what default value is.
November 28
On Tuesday, 28 November 2017 at 04:19:40 UTC, A Guy With an Opinion wrote:
> Also, C and C++ didn't just have undefined behavior, sometimes it has inconsistent behavior. Sometimes int a; is actually set to 0.

set to?
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