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April 30, 2006
Re: GNU-D opens up shop
On Sun, 30 Apr 2006 06:38:56 +1000, Hasan Aljudy <hasan.aljudy@gmail.com>  
wrote:


> I think that if you have a vision, you must be the leader in order to  
> achieve that vision.
> Gabe seems to have a vision, he cannot realize that vision on  
> dsource.org, there for he's trying to create a new movement among the  
> community, where he is the leader that directs everyone to achieve the  
> vision that he has.

This is exactly the feeling I got too. I'm not ready to support Gabe as  
the self-elected boss yet. The dsource approach seem to suit me better.

-- 
Derek Parnell
Melbourne, Australia
April 30, 2006
Re: GNU-D opens up shop
"Derek Parnell" <derek@psych.ward> дÈëÏûÏ¢ÐÂÎÅ:op.s8sodjnt6b8z09@ginger.vic.bigpond.net.au...
> On Sun, 30 Apr 2006 06:38:56 +1000, Hasan Aljudy <hasan.aljudy@gmail.com> 
> wrote:
>
>
>> I think that if you have a vision, you must be the leader in order to 
>> achieve that vision.
>> Gabe seems to have a vision, he cannot realize that vision on 
>> dsource.org, there for he's trying to create a new movement among the 
>> community, where he is the leader that directs everyone to achieve the 
>> vision that he has.
>
> This is exactly the feeling I got too. I'm not ready to support Gabe as 
> the self-elected boss yet. The dsource approach seem to suit me better.

Did you means the approach that no schedule, no management, just for fun?

So£¬some lib will stall any time,  stop any time, without any announcement.

>
> -- 
> Derek Parnell
> Melbourne, Australia
April 30, 2006
Re: GNU-D opens up shop
Alberto Simon wrote:
> In article <e30n4a$22ig$1@digitaldaemon.com>, kris says...
> 
>>Hasan Aljudy wrote:
>>[snip]
>>
>>>>That's right. But that's a different aspect altogether -- the original 
>>>>question remains: why does building a set of cohesive libraries 
>>>>require a new host/site? Why can't that be done on dsource.org ?
>>>
>>>
>>>That's a good question.
>>>I think that if you have a vision, you must be the leader in order to 
>>>achieve that vision.
>>>Gabe seems to have a vision, he cannot realize that vision on 
>>>dsource.org, there for he's trying to create a new movement among the 
>>>community, where he is the leader that directs everyone to achieve the 
>>>vision that he has.
>>
>>Well, that's certainly a twist :)
>>
>>The obvious question is: why can't this "vision" be manifested at dsource?
>>
>>I mean, is dsource such an unruly place that nothing can possibly be 
>>achieved? Are they just not worthy, over there? Or, do those currently 
>>at dsource not have any notion of vision?
>>
>>I have this "vision" of a horde of gnarly programmers milling around at 
>>dsource like pigs at a trough <g>
>>
>>And, why can't gabe answer these question himself? It's been asked a 
>>number of times now ;)
>>
>>Having a "vision" is great. And, if one needs to place said vision under 
>>the umbrella of some doctrine, then more power to you. However, that 
>>tends to point toward one thing, and pretty much one thing only: such a 
>>"vision" appears to be more about ivory-towers than about a D community 
>>or the furtherment/success of D per se. Otherwise, it could happily take 
>>place at the "grand cathedral" of dsource. Right?
>>
>>Without meaning to state the obvious, it's not as though others are not 
>>currently working on a "unified vision" either - it's hardly a novel 
>>idea - some of those projects even have one or two years invested thus 
>>far. Is it too much trouble to get involved with those, perhaps? Are 
>>they perhaps just not good enough? Is there perhaps a touch of "not 
>>invented here" syndrome? Something else maybe?
>>
>>I'd like to think these questions have some logical and rational 
>>answers, and I'd really like to see you folks join in with the effort 
>>under way at dsource. Lastly, I'd like to think we won't find gnu-d with 
>>its little hand in the "open" dsource cookie-jar :)
>>
> 
> 

> In the end, this just adds up to why to use or why not to use dsource.org. 
> It's all a matter of impression. 

With respect "Alberto", dsource.org represents the majority segment of 
current D developer-group ~ globally, one might add ~ and is quite open 
by nature.

On the other hand, what's being proposed represents the ideals of one 
individual, shadowed by the auspices of the GPL. Quite different 
concepts, wouldn't you say? Quite a bit more than simply a matter of 
impression :)


> Gabe want's a site where there is only one focus,
> having a lot of libraries that each own has one focus doesn't give an impression
> of uniformity or conformity. It's not that having a variety of libraries is bad,
> but in order to develop a package you need your own page just to give the
> impression that your goal is unified. Mono is both hosted in it's page and in
> sourceforge, as many other projects do, but it's goals and management doesn't
> occur through sourceforge (mainly) and that's probably the reason for a new
> page. 
[snip]

We keep hearing about Mono, when there's zero comparison. Mono is a 
*clone* of an existing environment. Didn't Walter explain this already?

Unfortunately, the intent here is starting to look more and more like 
some veiled effort to capitalize upon the work of others. If it were 
truly for the benefit of the D community, or for the true furtherment of 
D as a success, there would likely be no issue about making this a 
dsource project, with potentially an independent front-page. Would 
there? Instead, we see a lot of spinning and weaving around that 
particular question. And from people who apparently know little about D? 
It's almost like there's "suddenly a marketing opportunity to make a few 
bucks" ... kinda' bizarre how this is turning out.

Don't get me wrong: marketing, with a big capital 'M', would be great 
for D. But this approach, er, smells of trout. If you'll please pardon 
me for saying so?

Suggestion:

So, why not build a front-page that represents the ideals of the D 
community? Backed by dsource projects, intellect, knowledge, ideals, 
non-viral licensing, and everything else that dsource represents?

Wouldn't that perhaps better represent the D community than some 
individual who is completely new to the language and environment?

*shrug*


> We should put our attention to more important issues like how to accomplish
> everything we wan't. I come from a .NET/Java background in the sense that I'm
> used to work in a coherent environment and that the tools needed to be
> productive are there, every thing just works. 
[snip]

The actual need for a cohesive library is not the issue at hand here


> I would like to ask anyone that reads what I wrote, to keep in mind that english
> isn't my native language and that there could be errors in what I wrote, but try
> to grasp the whole meaning of what I intended to say.

Oh, you do very well. In fact, your particular command and usage of 
English is patterned just a bit too closely to that of "gabe" ;)

It is somewhat odd how many brand new NG names are coming out in support 
of "gabe" and gnu/gpl, all of a sudden. From pathlink.com also. Perhaps 
that's just a happy coincidence

Salud!

- Kris
April 30, 2006
Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: GNU-D opens up shop
> (including the GDC, I think), SVN annonymous access for checkouts,

I hope you have talked to GDC author(s) about this, and received a "green
light" from them? It would be silly to do what you did without their
approval.

Kind regards

Dejan
April 30, 2006
Re: GNU-D opens up shop
On Sun, 30 Apr 2006 11:42:03 +1000, Boris Wang <nano.kago@hotmail.com>  
wrote:

>
>
>
> "Derek Parnell" <derek@psych.ward> Ð 
> ´ÈëÏûÏ¢ÐÂÎÅ:op.s8sodjnt6b8z09@ginger.vic.bigpond.net.au...
>> On Sun, 30 Apr 2006 06:38:56 +1000, Hasan Aljudy  
>> <hasan.aljudy@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I think that if you have a vision, you must be the leader in order to
>>> achieve that vision.
>>> Gabe seems to have a vision, he cannot realize that vision on
>>> dsource.org, there for he's trying to create a new movement among the
>>> community, where he is the leader that directs everyone to achieve the
>>> vision that he has.
>>
>> This is exactly the feeling I got too. I'm not ready to support Gabe as
>> the self-elected boss yet. The dsource approach seem to suit me better.
>
> Did you means the approach that no schedule, no management, just for fun?
>
> So£¬some lib will stall any time,  stop any time, without any  
> announcement.
>

I think you misunderstand dsource's role. It hosts projects. There is  
nothing to stop any given project from being run along the lines you  
suggest. It is very possible to start a project, hosted at dsource, that  
has a schedule, management, etc ...  dsource is not a hinderance to such a  
method of working.



-- 
Derek Parnell
Melbourne, Australia
April 30, 2006
Re: GNU-D opens up shop
Derek Parnell wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Apr 2006 11:42:03 +1000, Boris Wang <nano.kago@hotmail.com> 
> wrote:
> 
>>
>>
>>
>> "Derek Parnell" <derek@psych.ward> 
>> дÈëÏûÏ¢ÐÂÎÅ:op.s8sodjnt6b8z09@ginger.vic.bigpond.net.au...
>>> On Sun, 30 Apr 2006 06:38:56 +1000, Hasan Aljudy 
>>> <hasan.aljudy@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> I think that if you have a vision, you must be the leader in order to
>>>> achieve that vision.
>>>> Gabe seems to have a vision, he cannot realize that vision on
>>>> dsource.org, there for he's trying to create a new movement among the
>>>> community, where he is the leader that directs everyone to achieve the
>>>> vision that he has.
>>>
>>> This is exactly the feeling I got too. I'm not ready to support Gabe as
>>> the self-elected boss yet. The dsource approach seem to suit me better.
>>
>> Did you means the approach that no schedule, no management, just for fun?
>>
>> So£¬some lib will stall any time,  stop any time, without any 
>> announcement.
>>
> 
> I think you misunderstand dsource's role. It hosts projects. There is 
> nothing to stop any given project from being run along the lines you 
> suggest. It is very possible to start a project, hosted at dsource, that 
> has a schedule, management, etc ...  dsource is not a hinderance to such 
> a method of working.
> 
> 
> 
> --Derek Parnell
> Melbourne, Australia

In fact, with the trac functionality, project management is basically 
built in.
April 30, 2006
Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: GNU-D opens up shop
Anders F Björklund wrote:
> Jari-Matti Mäkelä wrote:
> 
>> One thing that bothers me is that what does this GNU mean here? Do we 
>> have to assign any copyrights to GNU? If that is not required, it will 
>> most probably hurt the development of GNU D compiler tools. (at some 
>> point the transition from gpl2->gpl3 will take place)
> 
> I don't think we have to, unless we want it to be part of the main GCC ?
> It would be nice if we could get the needed D *patches* conditionalized
> into the main GCC tree, but I don't think that all of D has to be there.
> (we can still package it together with GCC, since they're all under GPL)
> 
> I think it's enough if you can add the "d" and "libphobos" directories
> to an existing GCC tarball, patch some Makefiles, and be on your way ?
> But technically I think the name of it is "GDC - D Front End for GCC",
> that is: GDC is just an acronym, as using GNU isn't really authorized ?
> 
> 
> DMD is copyright Digital Mars, and GDC is copyright David Friedman,
> DMD licensed under GPL v1 and GDC under GPL v2 (should be compatible)
> 
> To *really* be "the GNU D Compiler", both of these must sign their
> copyright over to "Free Software Foundation, Inc.", I suppose... ?
> 
> At least that is how I interpret: http://gcc.gnu.org/contribute.html
> (they say either assign to FSF, or give up copyright by making it PD)
> 
> But I haven't had any FSF complaints about me using "GNU D Compiler"
> for it on the gdcmac site (http://gdcmac.sourceforge.net/), so far....
> 
> --anders

As I am a rabid fan of correct nomenclature (for those who haven't 
noticed...), if GDC is not GNU, then maybe it should not be called "GNU 
D Compiler". I don't know what it means to be "GNU" though (and I'm not 
bothered to check it out now), so I don't know if GDC is a "GNU D 
Compiler".
(Yes this is a minor tiny issue, but still)

-- 
Bruno Medeiros - CS/E student
http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?BrunoMedeiros#D
May 01, 2006
Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: GNU-D opens up shop
Bruno Medeiros wrote:

>> DMD is copyright Digital Mars, and GDC is copyright David Friedman,
>> DMD licensed under GPL v1 and GDC under GPL v2 (should be compatible)
>>
>> To *really* be "the GNU D Compiler", both of these must sign their
>> copyright over to "Free Software Foundation, Inc.", I suppose... ?
[...]
> As I am a rabid fan of correct nomenclature (for those who haven't 
> noticed...), if GDC is not GNU, then maybe it should not be called "GNU 
> D Compiler". I don't know what it means to be "GNU" though (and I'm not 
> bothered to check it out now), so I don't know if GDC is a "GNU D 
> Compiler".

Normally it means that it is sanctioned by the Free Software Foundation.
http://directory.fsf.org/GNU/

That is, that the software is part of the GNU project - not just GPL...
http://www.gnu.org/gnu/thegnuproject.html


For instance, the Linux kernel is GPL but not part of the GNU project.
(GNU has their own kernel called HURD, but that's a whole other topic)

And you are right of course, we should get this matter sorted out good
by getting both of Digital Mars and Free Software Foundation involved.


The backup plan is "D Compiler for GCC", or even "D Front End for GCC"
However, the others are called: GNU C Compiler, GNU C++ Compiler, etc.

--anders
May 03, 2006
Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: GNU-D opens up shop
Anders F Björklund wrote:
> Bruno Medeiros wrote:
> 
>>> DMD is copyright Digital Mars, and GDC is copyright David Friedman,
>>> DMD licensed under GPL v1 and GDC under GPL v2 (should be compatible)
>>>
>>> To *really* be "the GNU D Compiler", both of these must sign their
>>> copyright over to "Free Software Foundation, Inc.", I suppose... ?
> [...]
>> As I am a rabid fan of correct nomenclature (for those who haven't 
>> noticed...), if GDC is not GNU, then maybe it should not be called 
>> "GNU D Compiler". I don't know what it means to be "GNU" though (and 
>> I'm not bothered to check it out now), so I don't know if GDC is a 
>> "GNU D Compiler".
> 
> Normally it means that it is sanctioned by the Free Software Foundation.
> http://directory.fsf.org/GNU/
> 
> That is, that the software is part of the GNU project - not just GPL...
> http://www.gnu.org/gnu/thegnuproject.html
> 
> 
> For instance, the Linux kernel is GPL but not part of the GNU project.
> (GNU has their own kernel called HURD, but that's a whole other topic)
> 
> And you are right of course, we should get this matter sorted out good
> by getting both of Digital Mars and Free Software Foundation involved.
> 
> 
> The backup plan is "D Compiler for GCC", or even "D Front End for GCC"
> However, the others are called: GNU C Compiler, GNU C++ Compiler, etc.
> 
> --anders

What about simply "GCC D Compiler"?

-- 
Bruno Medeiros - CS/E student
http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?BrunoMedeiros#D
May 03, 2006
Re: ANNOUNCEMENT: GNU-D opens up shop
Bruno Medeiros wrote:

>> The backup plan is "D Compiler for GCC", or even "D Front End for GCC"
>> However, the others are called: GNU C Compiler, GNU C++ Compiler, etc.
> 
> What about simply "GCC D Compiler"?

You would have to ask David Friedman...

http://home.earthlink.net/~dvdfrdmn/d/ "D Front End for GCC"

http://sourceforge.net/projects/dgcc/ "GDC: D Compiler for GCC"

But yeah, "GCC D Compiler" works too.

--anders

PS.
Even more interesting is what happened to http://gnu-d.org ?
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