January 01, 2007
WOW.

Just a simple question regarding network protocols and collections. Will a Java developer feel comfortable with your network protocol and collection implementation. (f.i. method named etc.., in general similar behaviour ) ?

Happy new year folks.
Bjoern

"Sean Kelly" <sean@f4.ca> schreef in bericht news:en9ou4$23hr$1@digitaldaemon.com...
> It is our pleasure to announce the existence of a new application library named Tango.  Originally born from discussions about how to better integrate Mango and Ares, Tango has since grown substantially in scope, design, and participation to something that truly outshines its humble beginnings.  More than a simple collection of tools, it is our belief that Tango is a framework on top of which to build robust and extensible D libraries and applications.  And as we feel the availability of solid and extensive documentation represents a prime factor in library accessibility, Tango features a robust and growing set of documentation, examples, and tutorials.  A beta code release will follow shortly after the D 1.0 milestone, but in the interim here is an outline of some of its features:
>
> * Modularity.  The compiler runtime and garbage collector implementation
> may be chosen at link-time.
> * Atomic mark/sweep garbage collection by default, with a malloc-based
> stub allocator to serve as an example for future development.
> * User interception of important language and system-level errors and
> events.
> * Various levels of concurrency, including process control, kernel
> threads, and fibers (stack threads).
> * A robust IO framework based on the Mango design.
> * An array of mathematics routines ranging from low-level IEEE interop.
> to high-level statistics and numerics.
> * A networking model that is growing to encompass some of the most
> common IO designs and network protocols.
> * Standard C, POSIX, and system API support.
> * Basic text processing, a container package, logging facilities, and
more.
>
> Tango has been tested with both DMD and GDC on Windows, Linux, and MacOSX for the x86 and PPC architectures.
>
> A selection of contributors include:
>
> Alexander Panek
> Anders F. Björklund
> Brad Anderson
> Brad Roberts
> Carlos Santander
> Chris Miller
> Don Clugston
> Eric Anderton
> Frank Benoit
> Gregor Richards
> Kashia Buch
> Kris Bell
> John Chapman
> John Reimer
> Juan Comellas
> Lars Ivar Igesund
> Mikola Lysenko
> Regan Heath
> Sean Kelly
> Tomasz Stachowiak
> UWB


January 01, 2007
Hi, this sounds great :)

I would like tango to get all the things, D programmers frequently need, instead of having x implementations in different libs of the same function.

Code would be much more understandable then, when people use the same base.

There should be a review commitee that decides whether an external lib will be integrated, in respect to code quality and implementation (one should then of course not use a lib that does the same function like a lib that is already in tango) ;)

Ares (dsource.org) also aimed to replace phobos ("second coming of phobos"), but not much has happened.

Hopefully Tango will do better and become the new standard library for D.

My best whishes,
Daniel
January 01, 2007
Daniel919 wrote:

> Hi, this sounds great :)
> 
> I would like tango to get all the things, D programmers frequently need, instead of having x implementations in different libs of the same function.
> 
> Code would be much more understandable then, when people use the same base.

That is certainly a goal for Tango, aiming for high quality and cohesiveness.

> 
> There should be a review commitee that decides whether an external lib will be integrated, in respect to code quality and implementation (one should then of course not use a lib that does the same function like a lib that is already in tango) ;)

Well, we will try not to have two implementations of the same thing ;)

> 
> Ares (dsource.org) also aimed to replace phobos ("second coming of
> phobos"), but not much has happened.

Actually, much has happened to Ares in the guise of Tango lately.

> 
> Hopefully Tango will do better and become the new standard library for D.

That certainly would be nice (IMO), but I would be surprised if this is a sudden happening without fairly heavy discussions. Tango is not a Phobos clone.

-- 
Lars Ivar Igesund
blog at http://larsivi.net
DSource & #D: larsivi
January 01, 2007
This all sounds great, especially if you make good containers that satisfy people from Java and C++ traditions (and all the others too)...

Except for one little thing, that might not be a big thing, but I'll mention it early so that you can think if you want to react to this or not:
There already is a project called Tango in the opensource world... See http://tango.freedesktop.org/Tango_Desktop_Project
and they've even registered the domain name: http://tango-project.org
It's is a project that tries to unify some conventions on icon naming, and it also provides style guidelines and a base icon library with a SVG kind of look. The project is mostly related to the Gnome desktop, although they are hosted by freedesktop.org... And they have pretty much established their name, and are well known by propably every free software person that I know of. They even use the verb "Tangofied" to mean that some application now uses icons that use the Tango style guidelines.
I'm not trying to put you down, or suggest that you change your projects name, but I just want to make sure you know that the name "has already been taken". And that this might make it more difficult for your project and D as a whole to get recognized in google, and everywhere... Distinctive branding is quite important for any projects success these days (atleast I think so). But in the end it's your project and you make the decisions. I'll use it (if it's good) no matter what name you give to it.
(And frankly, I quite like the names Mango, Ares and Deimos too... I think that Mango is a great name. And that Ares, Phobos and Deimos should be used as names for some core things in D, as they are all related to the Mars thing. And maybe that stuff could be standard library and containers, GUI library and hmm... something else? But I'm not trying to push you into anything, just thinking out loud.)

:)

>> Hopefully Tango will do better and become the new standard library for D.
> 
> That certainly would be nice (IMO), but I would be surprised if this is a
> sudden happening without fairly heavy discussions. Tango is not a Phobos
> clone.
> 
January 01, 2007
bls wrote:
> WOW.
> 
> Just a simple question regarding network protocols and collections.
> Will a Java developer feel comfortable with your network protocol and
> collection implementation. (f.i. method named etc.., in general similar
> behaviour ) ?

Definitely with the collections, as they began as a port of Doug Lea's collections.  The IO stuff is fairly Java-like as well in that it's object-oriented, but the details are somewhat different.  See Mango at DSource for an idea of what the IO model looks like, as it was a starting point for the design (I'm not sure how much Kris has kept the two in sync since development on Tango began).


Sean
January 01, 2007
Daniel919 wrote:
> Hi, this sounds great :)
> 
> I would like tango to get all the things, D programmers frequently need,
> instead of having x implementations in different libs of the same
> function.
> 
> Code would be much more understandable then, when people use the same base.

I agree.  Though at the same time, I think it's important that the door be left open for third-party extensions that are well-integrated with Tango proper.  This is where package management tools like DSSS will come in very handy in the days to come.  Over time, if there are additional packages that everyone uses they we may ask if they can be distributed with Tango, but I don't think it's strictly necessary so long as obtaining and using third-party code is sufficiently easy.

> There should be a review commitee that decides whether an external lib will
> be integrated, in respect to code quality and implementation (one
> should then of course not use a lib that does the same function like a
> lib  that is already in tango) ;)

At the moment, that's simply the Tango development team.

> Ares (dsource.org) also aimed to replace phobos ("second coming of
> phobos"), but not much has happened.

All of my free time for the past N months has been devoted to Tango, so everything I'd planned for Ares has been done there instead.  I'm personally quite happy with how Tango has turned out at a low-level. It's a pretty big change from Ares but for the basic segmentation of code into a compiler runtime, garbage collector, and common code.  And for what it's worth, I think that kernel development and similar projects will actually be easier with Tango than they were with Ares--I've been pretty careful to avoid heaping too many requirements on what is required to run a minimal D application against Tango.


Sean
January 01, 2007
Jonas Kivi wrote:
> Except for one little thing, that might not be a big thing, but I'll
> mention it early so that you can think if you want to react to this or
> not: There already is a project called Tango in the opensource world...
> See http://tango.freedesktop.org/Tango_Desktop_Project
> and they've even registered the domain name: http://tango-project.org
> It's is a project that tries to unify some conventions on icon naming,
> and it also provides style guidelines and a base icon library with a SVG
> kind of look. The project is mostly related to the Gnome desktop,
> although they are hosted by freedesktop.org... And they have pretty much
> established their name, and are well known by propably every free
> software person that I know of. They even use the verb "Tangofied" to
> mean that some application now uses icons that use the Tango style
> guidelines.
> I'm not trying to put you down, or suggest that you change your projects
> name, but I just want to make sure you know that the name "has already
> been taken". And that this might make it more difficult for your project
> and D as a whole to get recognized in google, and everywhere...
> Distinctive branding is quite important for any projects success these
> days (atleast I think so). But in the end it's your project and you make
> the decisions. I'll use it (if it's good) no matter what name you give
> to it.

We became aware of the Tango project soon after thinking of Tango as a name for our project. I barely remember a rather short discussion on the subject, where we mainly decided that the scope of the two projects are very different (there's not really any possible conflicts if a project decides to use something from both, and that itself seems like a fairly unlikely event).

I personally think it won't be a problem, but wouldn't mind to hear other responses on the subject.

-- 
Lars Ivar Igesund
blog at http://larsivi.net
DSource & #D: larsivi
January 01, 2007
Jonas Kivi wrote:
> This all sounds great, especially if you make good containers that satisfy people from Java and C++ traditions (and all the others too)...
> 
> Except for one little thing, that might not be a big thing, but I'll mention it early so that you can think if you want to react to this or not:
> There already is a project called Tango in the opensource world... See http://tango.freedesktop.org/Tango_Desktop_Project
> and they've even registered the domain name: http://tango-project.org
> It's is a project that tries to unify some conventions on icon naming, and it also provides style guidelines and a base icon library with a SVG kind of look. The project is mostly related to the Gnome desktop, although they are hosted by freedesktop.org... And they have pretty much established their name, and are well known by propably every free software person that I know of. They even use the verb "Tangofied" to mean that some application now uses icons that use the Tango style guidelines.
> I'm not trying to put you down, or suggest that you change your projects name, but I just want to make sure you know that the name "has already been taken". And that this might make it more difficult for your project and D as a whole to get recognized in google, and everywhere... Distinctive branding is quite important for any projects success these days (atleast I think so). But in the end it's your project and you make the decisions. I'll use it (if it's good) no matter what name you give to it.
> (And frankly, I quite like the names Mango, Ares and Deimos too... I think that Mango is a great name. And that Ares, Phobos and Deimos should be used as names for some core things in D, as they are all related to the Mars thing. And maybe that stuff could be standard library and containers, GUI library and hmm... something else? But I'm not trying to push you into anything, just thinking out loud.)
> 
> :)

Hmmm. I don't know how much thought was put into choosing the "Tango" name (Is it just a word that rhymes with Mango?), but I think that "Ares" was the result of much brainstorming and voting. Since the "Ares" project has apparently been abandoned in favor of being part of Tango, maybe it would be appropriate for Tango to inherit its name.

But I guess as long as D's Tango isn't directly competing with the Tango Desktop Project, it's probably not necessary to do any renaming.

-- 
jcc7
January 01, 2007
Jonas Kivi <satelliittipupu@yahoo.co.uk>
Jonas Kivi wrote:

> (And frankly, I quite like the names Mango, Ares and Deimos too... I think that Mango is a great name. And that Ares, Phobos and Deimos should be used as names for some core things in D, as they are all related to the Mars thing. And maybe that stuff could be standard library and containers, GUI library and hmm... something else? But I'm not trying to push you into anything, just thinking out loud.)

I agree with above. Especially I like names connected with moons/planets/suns etc. I don't know many programs/libraries with such a names in software world, so they could be good branding for D libraries. Maybe we could just go outside of Mars satellites <g> Let's reach the stars!

Regards
Marcin Kuszczak (Aarti_pl)
-------------------------------------
Ask me why I believe in Jesus http://zapytaj.dlajezusa.pl (en/pl)
-------------------------------------
January 01, 2007
I'm curious :) :


When did this project start?


Was it deliberately kept secret? (I never heard of it before today, and I can't find any mention of it on the DSource forums)
If so, why? Was it meant as a "D 1.0 release" present to Walter and/or the D community?


> A selection of contributors include:
[snip]

Were all of those people "in on it"? Or does that list include people who wrote code that has been incorporated into Tango, but who were not necessarily aware of its existence? (before the announcement, obviously)


> * A networking model that is growing to encompass some of the most
> common IO designs and network protocols.

Which network protocols?
TCP/IP and UDP?
HTTP and FTP? SSH? Others?


I didn't see compression mentioned in the feature list. Phobos has ext.c.zlib IIRC, does Tango have something similar? (not necessarily zip, but some well-known compression format would be nice)
If it doesn't, are there any plans to add it?


How different is it from a mere combination of what can be found on DSource (and other D sites)?


Final questions:
Where will it be hosted? DSource I presume?
Is there a preview available? Or documentation?


All in all this looks pretty interesting, from the information currently available.