If D had an ide that could do the following I think development and testing could be better managed.

1. IDE that works with a centralized server to be able to change D versions at a drop of a time. e.g., click "Master" and it checks to see if you have the latest, if not it downloads it, configures it, and sets it up hands free to be used. (If it requires any interaction to work then it is a bug)

2. Patches, bugs, and everything else can be accessed through this IDE. Collaboration can be made between groups of people and individuals. Announcements could be made by head honchos. (In fact, this software could be more generic and used by anyone for any purpose of collaboration in programming... e.g. with php).

One can see open bugs, issues, workarounds, etc at a click.

3. Projects could be collaborated on easily with people being able to "watch"(RD) another persons session(say for debugging help or whatever).

4. The ability to connect resources to projects. e.g. insert a note over a function that links to the D documentation about a bug.

5. etc.

If such an IDE existed so that anyone could simply run it, open a "bug" and start working without having to go through a massive change(by quick, I mean click of a button), then I think people would be more willing to help.


The number one reason I don't contribute is that I don't have the time to dedicate to maintain all the knowledge and software/organization to fit it in my schedule.

I suspect that is most everyone excuse too.


I don't want to spend 30mins to an hour to download the latest version, compile it if I have to, make sure all the configuration stuff is correct, create a setup program... just to find out there is a bug in the latest version at the end.

I'm simply not that dedicated to D. Again, I suspect most people aren't. You have really dedicated people here but not enough to get everything that needs to be done, done.

Instead, find out how to leverage all the people that would help if you make it worth their time.

It might be slower in the short term but better in the long term.  In 10 more years I doubt Andrei or Walter will have as much energy to do all the work that they are doing... Better build the infrastructure now while there is time.

On Monday, 23 March 2015 at 21:34:09 UTC, Jake The Baker wrote:
> If D had an ide that could do the following I think development and testing could be better managed.
>
> 1. IDE that works with a centralized server to be able to change D versions at a drop of a time. e.g., click "Master" and it checks to see if you have the latest, if not it downloads it, configures it, and sets it up hands free to be used. (If it requires any interaction to work then it is a bug)
>
> 2. Patches, bugs, and everything else can be accessed through this IDE. Collaboration can be made between groups of people and individuals. Announcements could be made by head honchos. (In fact, this software could be more generic and used by anyone for any purpose of collaboration in programming... e.g. with php).
>
> One can see open bugs, issues, workarounds, etc at a click.
>
> 3. Projects could be collaborated on easily with people being able to "watch"(RD) another persons session(say for debugging help or whatever).
>
> 4. The ability to connect resources to projects. e.g. insert a note over a function that links to the D documentation about a bug.
>
> 5. etc.
>
> If such an IDE existed so that anyone could simply run it, open a "bug" and start working without having to go through a massive change(by quick, I mean click of a button), then I think people would be more willing to help.
>
>
> The number one reason I don't contribute is that I don't have the time to dedicate to maintain all the knowledge and software/organization to fit it in my schedule.
>
> I suspect that is most everyone excuse too.
>
>
> I don't want to spend 30mins to an hour to download the latest version, compile it if I have to, make sure all the configuration stuff is correct, create a setup program... just to find out there is a bug in the latest version at the end.
>
> I'm simply not that dedicated to D. Again, I suspect most people aren't. You have really dedicated people here but not enough to get everything that needs to be done, done.
>
> Instead, find out how to leverage all the people that would help if you make it worth their time.
>
> It might be slower in the short term but better in the long term.
>  In 10 more years I doubt Andrei or Walter will have as much energy to do all the work that they are doing... Better build the infrastructure now while there is time.

VCS (Git in this case) and Make are tools of the trade. If a developer cannot use these tools following instructions provided in the Wiki [1] they probably won't have much in the way of useful contributions to Phobos or the compiler.

Bye,
lobo

[1] http://wiki.dlang.org/Pull_Requests

On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 21:34:08 +0000, Jake The Baker wrote:

> I don't want to spend 30mins to an hour to download the latest version, compile it if I have to, make sure all the configuration stuff is correct, create a setup program... just to find out there is a bug in the latest version at the end.

there is a brilliant invention here that helps with exactly this. it is called "scripting". i spent, you know, something like a hour more than year ago, and now i can build DMD in 2 minutes (this is the limit of my box, it can't compile code faster than that), update it in less than a minute (this is limited by internet connection) and so on.

there is life beyond IDEs. no, really, i'm not joking!

On Monday, 23 March 2015 at 21:34:09 UTC, Jake The Baker wrote:
> ...

most of this is already available in the form of tools(i.e, git, digger, etc)

you might want to talk to the dev of deadcode, dlangide, coedit, etc and see if any of them are interested in implementing these directly into their IDEs.

On Monday, 23 March 2015 at 21:34:09 UTC, Jake The Baker wrote:
> If D had an ide that could do the following I think development and testing could be better managed.
>
> 1. IDE that works with a centralized server to be able to change D versions at a drop of a time. e.g., click "Master" and it checks to see if you have the latest, if not it downloads it, configures it, and sets it up hands free to be used. (If it requires any interaction to work then it is a bug)
>
> 2. Patches, bugs, and everything else can be accessed through this IDE. Collaboration can be made between groups of people and individuals. Announcements could be made by head honchos. (In fact, this software could be more generic and used by anyone for any purpose of collaboration in programming... e.g. with php).
>
> One can see open bugs, issues, workarounds, etc at a click.
>
> 3. Projects could be collaborated on easily with people being able to "watch"(RD) another persons session(say for debugging help or whatever).
>
> 4. The ability to connect resources to projects. e.g. insert a note over a function that links to the D documentation about a bug.
>
> 5. etc.
>
> If such an IDE existed so that anyone could simply run it, open a "bug" and start working without having to go through a massive change(by quick, I mean click of a button), then I think people would be more willing to help.
>
>
> The number one reason I don't contribute is that I don't have the time to dedicate to maintain all the knowledge and software/organization to fit it in my schedule.
>
> I suspect that is most everyone excuse too.
>
>
> I don't want to spend 30mins to an hour to download the latest version, compile it if I have to, make sure all the configuration stuff is correct, create a setup program... just to find out there is a bug in the latest version at the end.
>
> I'm simply not that dedicated to D. Again, I suspect most people aren't. You have really dedicated people here but not enough to get everything that needs to be done, done.
>
> Instead, find out how to leverage all the people that would help if you make it worth their time.
>
> It might be slower in the short term but better in the long term.
>  In 10 more years I doubt Andrei or Walter will have as much energy to do all the work that they are doing... Better build the infrastructure now while there is time.

Well, you know what? Everybody wants that kind of stuff. Some says I wish there was a way to do that in that way. Another wants for another thing. That's the reason people those do business (or just wealthy), go and pay people to prepare whatever they want and like.

Unfortunately, what we have is, like how open source projects are built, many single tools those CAN be connected each other very well, but separate from each other.

You know what they say: Linux CAN do that as well. Well, if you go to there, spend time and money, and give effort, then that's true only. You can theme Linux however you want. But, non of them looks as great as OS X.

On Monday, 23 March 2015 at 21:34:09 UTC, Jake The Baker wrote:
> If D had an ide that could do the following I think development and testing could be better managed.
>
...

Basically you want something like Nuget in Visual Studio: https://www.nuget.org/

There is something similar for D called "dub", but it's not integrated in Visual Studio - http://code.dlang.org/

Also, there is already an enhancement request for that: https://issues.dlang.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11641 on which you can vote.

On Monday, 23 March 2015 at 21:34:09 UTC, Jake The Baker wrote:
> 1. IDE that works with a centralized server to be able to change D versions at a drop of a time. e.g., click "Master" and it checks to see if you have the latest, if not it downloads it, configures it, and sets it up hands free to be used. (If it requires any interaction to work then it is a bug)
>
> 2. Patches, bugs, and everything else can be accessed through this IDE.

Digger can build and install any D version in combination with any GitHub fork or pull request:

https://github.com/CyberShadow/Digger

It even has a web interface, if you're allergic to command lines.

On 03/23/2015 08:18 PM, ketmar wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Mar 2015 21:34:08 +0000, Jake The Baker wrote:
>
>> I don't want to spend 30mins to an hour to download the latest version,
>> compile it if I have to, make sure all the configuration stuff is
>> correct, create a setup program... just to find out there is a bug in
>> the latest version at the end.
>
> there is a brilliant invention here that helps with exactly this. it is
> called "scripting". i spent, you know, something like a hour more than
> year ago, and now i can build DMD in 2 minutes (this is the limit of my
> box, it can't compile code faster than that), update it in less than a
> minute (this is limited by internet connection) and so on.
>

Already exists:
https://github.com/jacob-carlborg/dvm

$ dvm install 2.066.1
$ dvm install 2.067.0-b2
$ dvm use 2.066.1
$ dmd | grep DMD
DMD64 D Compiler v2.066.1
$ dvm use 2.067.0-b2
$ dmd | grep DMD
DMD64 D Compiler v2.067.0-b2

> there is life beyond IDEs. no, really, i'm not joking!
>

Indeed! After all, a programmer's whole job is to write commands and automate tasks anyway.

You guys are complete ignoring 90% of the post. It is not just about configuration.


1. Whatever you claim to be easy is irrelevant. Just because X can be done by you. If you want "Me" to do X it better be easy, else I'm not going to waste my time.

Just because you can write 10 lines of script to download and install the latest D is irrelevant. There is much more to it(how long did it take you to figure out how to do that? 10 hours to find the proper post? 40 hours to get everything setup?)

It's very easy to pick and choose... but it is irrelevant in this discussion.


2. There is also the collaboration effect that was completely ignored by the posters.

I know, many are simply going to say that it's just as easy to open up a browser and get over to Git for the D forums... again, irrelevant.


----

This isn't about what can already be done. We already have a D compiler, people can already download different versions, submit patches, run scripts, create scripts on the comp to manage some of the things, etc...

What you guys not seeing is that all this stuff is a huge F@Sf'ing mess from people on the outside.

Sure, you think your bedroom is clean... but your idea of clean is vastly different from mine. If you want me to help you clean my room then you better make it easy on me. I'm not going to pick up your dirty underwear no matter how much you tell me it isn't a big deal.


The point is, every post has been from the perspective of those already involved in D... That's great! But what good does that do to increase the numbers involved.

How many posts have been made in the last 6 months of people saying that like D but don't use it for various issues? (issues that many of you claim are irrelevant)


I know that the mentality of "We already have bicycles... why do we need this thing you call a 'car'... seems very bulky and you have to put that stuff you call gas in it... I guess I have to buy that from you too?"...

Yet everyone uses cars... and if cars could fly and were cheap enough, everyone would use those too... even the ones that now say that flying cars are a waste.

When you have such problems with your eyes you have myopia. When you have similar problems with seeing that your not the only one that matters, it's called arrogance. With such arrogance, D will not grow.

Food For Thought: If Walter and Andrei get vaporized by aliens tomorrow, how many of you will not mind that D will be dead? What about all the hours you guys have put into "scripting", figuring out how dub works, and all that mess will be happy at moving into a new direction in life?

Well, from my perspective that is what is going to happen if things don't change. D is progressing too slow with too few supporters to get anywhere.

If all you hard core D supporters are ok with that, then fine! I have no problem with it then. But since I believe D is the best programming language(even with all its faults), I think it would be a tragedy for it to fade away so quickly. [e.g., Kids learning to program should be able to start with D in a nice environment just like I did with pascal... I remember it compiling so quick and never having any issues]

My feeling is that there are just a handful of hard core supporters trying to get D up and running(fixing bugs, expanding language, etc) but I think this is in vain if in 10 years no one uses it. (I guess progress though....)


Remember, marking is a huge deal in movies[etc], there is a reason for it! And if you had to input some script into your remote just to watch a show on TV, I think you either: A. Would get used to it and think it is natural, easy, and quick and everyone else should stop bitching. B. Buy a TV that was easier to use.

We have a gap between A and B and no one is willing to compromise.. But B is the market. This means A is either left to holding it's guns(sort of arrogance) or has to do the compromising. The B group(the ignorant group) simply do not have the desire to jump in with the A's. Time and money matter to some people more than others.

Also, having a central "Command" is always important for productive and efficiency. Do you think NASA could do what it does if it was spread out among hundred different people all handling tasks as they wish. You launch the space shuttle but little Joey, who was suppose to monitor the fly path and check for anomalies was forced to sit at the table and finish his spaghetti by his mother... Now the shuttle is sitting at the bottom of the ocean.

It's up to you guys.

The only think I can say is: I simply will not contribute to D(even though I think it is the best language) until it becomes worth my time(easier to manage all the stuff that needs to be managed). If you don't want to work with that and accept it then so be it. No big deal for me. I have other things to do(which is why I am not like you).

It would be nice if I was the only one like me, but if you believe that then I guess D has no hope anyways.

Regardless, I'll be back in another year to see what progress has been made. Good luck. I really do hope you guys can get your shit together and make D the top language! I'd like to actually use it for serious stuff one of these days(hopefully before my hair turns gray)

On Tuesday, 24 March 2015 at 17:13:07 UTC, Jake The Baker wrote:
> You guys are complete ignoring 90% of the post. It is not just about configuration.
>
>
clip
>
> Regardless, I'll be back in another year to see what progress has been made. Good luck. I really do hope you guys can get your shit together and make D the top language! I'd like to actually use it for serious stuff one of these days(hopefully before my hair turns gray)

Just curious to know which major open source programming languages support the sort of development environment you are suggesting for their core language/libraries.  I just checked Python (the most popular Open Source language of all)  and they use ./config make  and hg for version control .. seems pretty bare bones to me.

While I am sure what you are proposing would be nice, if a massive community like Python doesn't have time/resources to create such a thing, how do you propose a small community like D go about this?

Perhaps this is a project you could take on.

For the record, for someone to be a developer for a programming language, I don't think expecting them to understand the build system is really an issue. In fact I would feel more comfortable with such people contributing.