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October 24, 2007
Re: D vs. C#
Bruce Adams wrote:
> Nathan Reed Wrote:
> 
>> Bruce Adams wrote:
>>> Bill Baxter Wrote:
>>>
>>>> Bruce Adams wrote:
>>>>> An interpreter itself is relatively small. I can only assume that a
>>>>> lot of the bloat is down to bad coding. If you look at games these
>>>>> days they weigh in at a ridiculous 4Gb install. No amount of
>>>>> uncompressed data for performance gain excuses that. 
>>>> It's not the code that makes modern games eat up 4Gb of space, it's the 
>>>> textures, animations, 3D models, audio, video cut scenes, etc.  The code 
>>>> is a pretty small part of that.
>>>>
>>>> --bb
>>> That's partly my point. A lot of that could be achieved programmatically or with better compression. You get map and model files (effectively data structures representing maps and model) that are huge and hugely inefficient with it, describing low level details with little or no abstraction. E.g. a pyramid might made of points rather than recognising a pyramid as an abstraction. Some bright sparks have decided to use XML as their data format. Its only a little bigger and only takes a little extra time to parse. This costs little on a modern machine but can hardly be considered compact and efficient.
>>>
>> Map and model file formats for most modern games that I know of *do* 
>> provide a way to factor out common geometry elements, so you only store 
>> one copy of the geometry for a streetlight (say) rather than repeating 
>> it for every streetlight in the game world.  Even so, a modern game 
>> involves a hell of a lot of content.  That's just the way it is.
>>
>> I'm not sure how compressed that data is on the hard drive.  It's 
>> possible that they could shrink the data significantly with more 
>> attention to compression.  However, that probably adversely impacts 
>> level loading times which are already long enough (I was playing the 
>> latest installment of Half-Life the other day, and seeing approx. 20-30 
>> second load times).  Despite your opinion about uncompressed data for 
>> performance's sake, a lot of gamers *would* rather the game take up 4GB 
>> of space than add to the load times.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Nathan Reed
> 
> Don't get hung up on the geometry example. My example generator is broken. It is my contention that both the performance and compactness can be improved given the time and effort.
> I imagine it varies a lot from shop to shop but typically from what I hear they are working to tight deadlines with poor processes. Hopefully they still at least use the rule "get it right, then get it fast" but they miss off the "then get small" at the end.
> The huge install sizes and huge patches to supposedly "complete" games are one result of this. Battlefield 2 is painful slow to load each tiny level and yet still has a 4Gb install.
> Its almost a part of the package now. If someone realised a game that only needed a CD and not a DVD a lot of people would (wrongly) assume it was less feature rich than the DVD version. 
> Take a look at a good shareware game and you see more of the full craft at work parly because download sizes are restrictive (though less so than they were).
> 

I'm guessing it's not cost-efficient to spend development time on 
minimizing file size, since mot PC gamers probably don't care. At 
$30/hour of developer time, it's hard to justify investing in something 
that's a non-isue to most of the audience... although, with online 
distribution systems like Steam so popular, it's becoming a bigger issue 
now.
October 24, 2007
Re: D vs. C#
Chris Miller wrote:
> On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 07:28:42 -0400, Jascha Wetzel <firstname@mainia.de> 
> wrote:
> 
>> Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
>>> Except, they're not really as easy to use.
>>>  With .NET, you can derive from a class in a compiled assembly 
>>> without having access to the source. You just add the assembly in the 
>>> project's dependencies and import the namespace with "using". In C, 
>>> you must use the included .h files (and .h files are a pain to 
>>> maintain anyway since you must maintain the declaration and 
>>> implementation separately, but that's not news to you). You must 
>>> still use .lib and .di files with D and such - although they can be 
>>> automated in the build process, it's still a hassle.  Besides that, 
>>> statically linking in the runtime seems to be a too common practice, 
>>> as "DLL hell" has been a discouragement for dynamically-linked 
>>> libraries in the past (side-by-side assemblies is supposed to remedy 
>>> that though). I guess the fault is not in the DLLs themselves, it's 
>>> how people and Microsoft used them...
>>
>> That is correct, but the obvious solution to that problem is to 
>> support the OO paradigm in dynamic linking. That is, we don't need a 
>> VM, we need DDL.
>> Had C++ standardized it's ABI, this problem would probably not exist 
>> today.
> 
>   http://www.codesourcery.com/cxx-abi/
> I don't know the whole deal, but I guess some decided not to go by this; 
> I don't even know if DMC does or not.

That was added after the fact.

Unfortunately, the ABIs for Linux 64 and Windows 64 are diverging. It's 
ridiculous. I don't know if D will be able to support a common ABI across both 
platforms.
October 24, 2007
Re: D vs. C#
Don Clugston wrote:
> Unfortunately, the ABIs for Linux 64 and Windows 64 are diverging. It's 
> ridiculous. I don't know if D will be able to support a common ABI 
> across both platforms.


dmd already supports two different ABIs - win32 and linux 32. There are 
numerous subtle differences in calling conventions, alignment, register 
usage, as well as the major one of name mangling.
October 26, 2007
Re: D vs. C#
Walter Bright wrote:
> Don Clugston wrote:
>> Unfortunately, the ABIs for Linux 64 and Windows 64 are diverging. 
>> It's ridiculous. I don't know if D will be able to support a common 
>> ABI across both platforms.
> 
> 
> dmd already supports two different ABIs - win32 and linux 32. There are 
> numerous subtle differences in calling conventions, alignment, register 
> usage, as well as the major one of name mangling.

The Linux64/Win64 difference is worse, though. It's possible to have a pure asm 
function which will work on both Linux32 and Win32; that's not possible for the 
64 bit case.
But I'm most worried about the requirements for system exception handling.
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