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November 07, 2007
what is the definition of new programming language
Maybe this is an old topic or maybe this is a stupid question. But I am really confusing about it.
I learned C programming language in high school, and then I learned C++ in the first year in university. C++ likes opening a new world to me and gives me a new feeling about how to think the problems and how to construct the programs.
The D language has lots of good features, I am exciting about these features, but I can not feel as exciting as when I learn the C++ language. I do not know weather because it does not have a new thinking style about how to programming or something else.
Anyway, it is a really good language. But what is the definition of new programming language?
November 07, 2007
Re: what is the definition of new programming language
Sean wrote:
> Maybe this is an old topic or maybe this is a stupid question. But I am really confusing about it.
> I learned C programming language in high school, and then I learned C++ in the first year in university. C++ likes opening a new world to me and gives me a new feeling about how to think the problems and how to construct the programs.
> The D language has lots of good features, I am exciting about these features, but I can not feel as exciting as when I learn the C++ language. I do not know weather because it does not have a new thinking style about how to programming or something else.
> Anyway, it is a really good language. But what is the definition of new programming language?

One created after C++?  What does it matter?

If you want the same sort of Wow! you got going from C to C++, maybe you 
should learn a functional programming language next, like Scheme, Lisp, 
Haskell or OCaml.  Then come back to D when you're done having fun and 
ready to do some real work.  :-)

--bb
November 07, 2007
Re: what is the definition of new programming language
Sean wrote:
> Maybe this is an old topic or maybe this is a stupid question. But I am really confusing about it.
> I learned C programming language in high school, and then I learned C++ in the first year in university. C++ likes opening a new world to me and gives me a new feeling about how to think the problems and how to construct the programs.
> The D language has lots of good features, I am exciting about these features, but I can not feel as exciting as when I learn the C++ language. I do not know weather because it does not have a new thinking style about how to programming or something else.
> Anyway, it is a really good language. But what is the definition of new programming language?
> 

If forb replaces the word "I" in the English language with the invented 
pronoun "forb", forb has create a new language. Or has forb? Forb thinks 
this is a philosophical discussion, the answer to which is actually 
totally irrelevant. Clearly D is a new language, but even if it wasn't, 
how would that affect forb's life? Yes, it's the same paradigm as C++ 
(object orientation), so you're not likely to learn much about Computer 
Science from learning D, but it's still an extremely useful language.

 - Gregor Richards
November 08, 2007
Re: what is the definition of new programming language
Sean wrote:
> Maybe this is an old topic or maybe this is a stupid question. But I
> am really confusing about it. I learned C programming language in
> high school, and then I learned C++ in the first year in university.
> C++ likes opening a new world to me and gives me a new feeling about
> how to think the problems and how to construct the programs. The D
> language has lots of good features, I am exciting about these
> features, but I can not feel as exciting as when I learn the C++
> language. I do not know weather because it does not have a new
> thinking style about how to programming or something else. Anyway, it
> is a really good language. But what is the definition of new
> programming language?

When I first found D it was all the smaller changes/differences which 
made me think "hey, that's cool".  These things added up over time and I 
formed a general impression which was "wow, this is really cool".

Each time D improves, like the recent "full closures" feature, I think 
"hey, that's cool" all over again.  So, with D, given my long history in 
C/C++ etc, it's wasn't an immediate "wow" effect that I got but a 
gradual build up of "wow" if you will.

Regan
November 08, 2007
Re: what is the definition of new programming language
Sean Wrote:

> Maybe this is an old topic or maybe this is a stupid question. But I am really confusing about it.
> I learned C programming language in high school, and then I learned C++ in the first year in university. C++ likes opening a new world to me and gives me a new feeling about how to think the problems and how to construct the programs.
> The D language has lots of good features, I am exciting about these features, but I can not feel as exciting as when I learn the C++ language. I do not know weather because it does not have a new thinking style about how to programming or something else.
> Anyway, it is a really good language. But what is the definition of new programming language?


The question is: why c++ makes you felt this? For me c++ makes solving complex problems simple and c++ reduce the number of code lines (compared to c). But c++ isn't perfect as we know. Every new programming language must help solving problems and writing code simpler, IMO. This is what i felt the first time i wrote a D program. Currently D lose its magic, for me. Things like const/invariant and <"staic".dup> (copy on write) confusing me. This makes writing code not simpler. Some discussion in this NG are very academically. The main point should be "how to solve problems simple and short", IMHO. How you think about this?
November 08, 2007
Re: what is the definition of new programming language
simas wrote:
> Sean Wrote:
> 
>> Maybe this is an old topic or maybe this is a stupid question. But I am really confusing about it.
>> I learned C programming language in high school, and then I learned C++ in the first year in university. C++ likes opening a new world to me and gives me a new feeling about how to think the problems and how to construct the programs.
>> The D language has lots of good features, I am exciting about these features, but I can not feel as exciting as when I learn the C++ language. I do not know weather because it does not have a new thinking style about how to programming or something else.
>> Anyway, it is a really good language. But what is the definition of new programming language?
> 
>  
> The question is: why c++ makes you felt this? For me c++ makes solving complex problems simple and c++ reduce the number of code lines (compared to c). But c++ isn't perfect as we know. Every new programming language must help solving problems and writing code simpler, IMO. This is what i felt the first time i wrote a D program. Currently D lose its magic, for me. Things like const/invariant and <"staic".dup> (copy on write) confusing me. This makes writing code not simpler. Some discussion in this NG are very academically. The main point should be "how to solve problems simple and short", IMHO. How you think about this?
> 

To me, this feeling of excitement comes from getting to know new 
*concepts* of programming for the first time. C++ has a whole lot of 
them, from object-orientation to flexible user defined types, RAII and 
generic programming. Not all of these concepts are supported well and 
programming in C++ is certainly not simple to say the least. But there 
are a whole lot of styles possible in C++, more than in most languages.

The attractiveness of D for me is that it basically manages to do two 
things at once: 1) extend the already large amount of supported 
programming styles available in C++ and 2) do so in a manner that is 
less complicated and way more productive. On top of that, it is still a 
high-performance language. I find this very exciting because it allows 
the kind of freedom that can be found in C++ without losing that freedom 
again due to all kinds of messy limitations. </fanboy>

While D introduces some features foreign to C-derived languages and 
perhaps even has some novel designs, it doesn't really sport new 
concepts that I know of. As said, if you want to find something really 
new to learn it's worthwile to look at a language like lisp which is 
quite different than C++.
November 09, 2007
Re: what is the definition of new programming language
On 11/8/07, simas <simas@gmx.net> wrote:
> The question is: why c++ makes you felt this? For me c++ makes solving complex problems simple and c++ reduce the number of code lines (compared to c). But c++ isn't perfect as we know. Every new programming language must help solving problems and writing code simpler, IMO. This is what i felt the first time i wrote a D program. Currently D lose its magic, for me. Things like const/invariant and <"staic".dup> (copy on write) confusing me. This makes writing code not simpler. Some discussion in this NG are very academically. The main point should be "how to solve problems simple and short", IMHO. How you think about this?

I feel exactly like you. It's hard to explain why. All this syntactic
sugar just confuses me. Feature after feature, and a 1000 ways to do
everything.

-- 
Antti Holvikari
November 09, 2007
Re: what is the definition of new programming language
Antti Holvikari Wrote:

> 
> I feel exactly like you. It's hard to explain why. All this syntactic
> sugar just confuses me. Feature after feature, and a 1000 ways to do
> everything.
> 
> -- 
> Antti Holvikari

I have a preferred strategy for games like chess. Prefer moves that give you more options over moves that restrict you. 1000 choices is a good thing. Otherwise, you're shoehorned into writing something in a way that doesn't always work well.

Bruce.
November 09, 2007
Re: what is the definition of new programming language
Sean wrote:
> Maybe this is an old topic or maybe this is a stupid question. But I am really confusing about it.
> I learned C programming language in high school, and then I learned C++ in the first year in university. C++ likes opening a new world to me and gives me a new feeling about how to think the problems and how to construct the programs.
> The D language has lots of good features, I am exciting about these features, but I can not feel as exciting as when I learn the C++ language. I do not know weather because it does not have a new thinking style about how to programming or something else.
> Anyway, it is a really good language. But what is the definition of new programming language?

Perhaps you aren't using the language to its fullest potential.  I 
experienced the "wow" factor when I saw what D could do with 
metaprogramming, which goes way beyond any other imperative language 
that I've run across (and even beats a lot of functional ones to boot). 
 Of course, it's unlikely that you do a lot of metaprogramming unless 
you write libraries heavily.  It should be no surprise that roughly 60 
years  of programming language design has made the typical programming 
tasks a commodity for any decent language.  The tasks that should 
surprise you are things that aren't commodity jobs.

Dave
November 09, 2007
Re: what is the definition of new programming language
Bruce Adams wrote:
> Antti Holvikari Wrote:
> 
>> I feel exactly like you. It's hard to explain why. All this syntactic
>>  sugar just confuses me. Feature after feature, and a 1000 ways to do
>>  everything.
>> 
> I have a preferred strategy for games like chess. Prefer moves that give
>  you more options over moves that restrict you. 1000 choices is a good 
> thing. Otherwise, you're shoehorned into writing something in a way that
>  doesn't always work well.

It is like cybernetician Heinz von Försters "Imperative":
"Always act in such a manner as to maximise your future possibilities."

But note that we are talking abount /semantic/ choices, not /syntactic/!

Perl is such a fupped language, because it's cluttered with syntactic
choices that do not only /fail to enrich/ its semantics, but do even
/obstruct/ elegant and meaningful additions to it.

Regards, Frank
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