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January 29, 2008
Re: Website changes/updates
Lars Ivar Igesund pisze:
> Aarti_pl wrote:
> 
>> Lars Ivar Igesund pisze:
>>
>>> As mentioned before, the dancing logos had issues. We were looking for a
>>> logo that could represent power, speed and elegance, much like the dance
>>> and thus a reason for Tango being used as a name for the library. I feel
>>> the new logo represents all those traits nicely.
>> Well, I would say that name and logo together represents a lack of
>> cohesion... And I think that it is unintended, isn't it? ;-)
> 
> A logo is about connotations, not cohesion. The latter can be nice, but is
> rather uncommon with logos in general. The unusual aspect here may be that
> images exist that match Tango, but they still don't make for good logos.
> 

That is simply not true. Cohesion of e.g. company image is very 
important and companies work very hard to create cohesive image for 
outside world.

I think that the same rules applies to every organization which wants to 
make its chances for success better. That said MOST of good 
organizations shows their customers cohesive image.

*** I used word image in meaning: "everything what is visible for others 
from outside of organization.". It includes among others: name, logo, 
public relations, advertisements etc.

Unfortunately engineers often underestimate marketing issues... :-)

Best Regards
Marcin Kuszczak
(aarti_pl)
January 29, 2008
Re: Website changes/updates
Lars Ivar Igesund pisze:
> Lars Ivar Igesund wrote:
> 
>> Aarti_pl wrote:
>>
>>> Lars Ivar Igesund pisze:
>>>
>>>> As mentioned before, the dancing logos had issues. We were looking for a
>>>> logo that could represent power, speed and elegance, much like the dance
>>>> and thus a reason for Tango being used as a name for the library. I feel
>>>> the new logo represents all those traits nicely.
>>> Well, I would say that name and logo together represents a lack of
>>> cohesion... And I think that it is unintended, isn't it? ;-)
>> A logo is about connotations, not cohesion. The latter can be nice, but is
>> rather uncommon with logos in general. The unusual aspect here may be that
>> images exist that match Tango, but they still don't make for good logos.
> 
> I should add that such a logo _may_ exist, but we have yet to see it. The
> only viable alternatives to the current one in this round, were fully
> abstract logos.
> 
> Note that those saying the logo reminds them of cars, planes or motorcycles
> hits up on the same fact that made us choose the logo; the motive has been
> used in logos for such products and I would guess for the exact same
> reasons - the wings represents power, speed and elegance. Having wings as a
> logo for a motorcycle isn't cohesive either right?
> 

But did you see big, powerful and heavy motorcycles named "Tango"?
They call them "Harley Davidson"... :-D

Please notice that wings logo is connected rather with: "big, powerful, 
heavy, metal, hard, machine" words than with "elegance, dance, subtle, 
nice, light".

I studied in first place marketing, so I hope I have right feeling about 
these issues. But anyway I just wanted to give you feedback, as my 
feelings about new logo were similar as others expressed here.

BR
Marcin Kuszczak
(aarti_pl)
January 29, 2008
Re: Website changes/updates
Aarti_pl wrote:
> 
> Unfortunately engineers often underestimate marketing issues... :-)

To imply that we're in that group (underestimating marketing issues) would
be wrong.

-- 
Lars Ivar Igesund
blog at http://larsivi.net
DSource, #d.tango & #D: larsivi
Dancing the Tango
January 29, 2008
Re: Website changes/updates
Aarti_pl wrote:

> Lars Ivar Igesund pisze:
>> Lars Ivar Igesund wrote:
>> 
>>> Aarti_pl wrote:
>>>
>>>> Lars Ivar Igesund pisze:
>>>>
>>>>> As mentioned before, the dancing logos had issues. We were looking for
>>>>> a logo that could represent power, speed and elegance, much like the
>>>>> dance and thus a reason for Tango being used as a name for the
>>>>> library. I feel the new logo represents all those traits nicely.
>>>> Well, I would say that name and logo together represents a lack of
>>>> cohesion... And I think that it is unintended, isn't it? ;-)
>>> A logo is about connotations, not cohesion. The latter can be nice, but
>>> is rather uncommon with logos in general. The unusual aspect here may be
>>> that images exist that match Tango, but they still don't make for good
>>> logos.
>> 
>> I should add that such a logo _may_ exist, but we have yet to see it. The
>> only viable alternatives to the current one in this round, were fully
>> abstract logos.
>> 
>> Note that those saying the logo reminds them of cars, planes or
>> motorcycles hits up on the same fact that made us choose the logo; the
>> motive has been used in logos for such products and I would guess for the
>> exact same reasons - the wings represents power, speed and elegance.
>> Having wings as a logo for a motorcycle isn't cohesive either right?
>> 
> 
> But did you see big, powerful and heavy motorcycles named "Tango"?
> They call them "Harley Davidson"... :-D
> 
> Please notice that wings logo is connected rather with: "big, powerful,
> heavy, metal, hard, machine" words than with "elegance, dance, subtle,
> nice, light".

I think you are wrong on several accounts here, as the metal, machine and
heavy aspects has entered the fray here through the products themselves,
neither through logo nor name. When did a bird ever start representing
heavy? The logo isn't of an ostrich either.

Tango was chosen as a name because it can mean power, speed and elegance.
That it is a dance can additionally be used to infer some sense of fun
(dancing is fun, hopefully it is fun to use Tango too). Now, the logo
_also_ represents (in our eyes) power, speed and elegance (and if you want,
flying, which is fun and hopefully your Tango using code will fly too).
That the logo doesn't represent dancing is thus less of an issue, as that
was not the reason for choosing the name. 

Given the above connotations for both name and logo (I understand that
others may put other things into it, but that applies to all images), the
whole is highly cohesive, albeit in a different plane of perception. We may
be testing conventions with this logo, and if so I personally think that is
a good thing :) (as a user with only practical marketing background).

> I studied in first place marketing, so I hope I have right feeling about
> these issues. 

They may be right for you, but I don't agree with you, and I'm generally
impressed by how bad marketing representatives can perform when trying to
market computer technologies. You should indeed have a better background
for that though.

> But anyway I just wanted to give you feedback, as my 
> feelings about new logo were similar as others expressed here.

Negative feedback (to call it that, I know you mean it to be constructive)
is in a minority - most is very positive.

-- 
Lars Ivar Igesund
blog at http://larsivi.net
DSource, #d.tango & #D: larsivi
Dancing the Tango
January 29, 2008
Re: Website changes/updates
Lars Ivar Igesund wrote:
> Aarti_pl wrote:
> 
>> Lars Ivar Igesund pisze:
>>
>>> As mentioned before, the dancing logos had issues. We were looking for a
>>> logo that could represent power, speed and elegance, much like the dance
>>> and thus a reason for Tango being used as a name for the library. I feel
>>> the new logo represents all those traits nicely.
>> Well, I would say that name and logo together represents a lack of
>> cohesion... And I think that it is unintended, isn't it? ;-)
> 
> A logo is about connotations, not cohesion. The latter can be nice, but is
> rather uncommon with logos in general. The unusual aspect here may be that
> images exist that match Tango, but they still don't make for good logos.
> 

I just like the concept of a standard library with its own logo.  That's 
funny.  And that we're debating about what it should be.  When I thought 
it was a motorcycle thing, I thought hey that's cool.  Maybe they're all 
into motorcycles or something.  Maybe it's an allusion to zen and the 
art of motorcycle maintenance.  I could definitely see that Robert 
Pirsig guy spinning a convincing argument that tangoing and morcycling 
are actually the same thing.

Anyway, image googling for "biker logo" turns up a few wings on the 
first page, so I guess I'm not crazy.
Like http://www.arabianbiker.com/

--bb
January 29, 2008
Re: Website changes/updates
Bill Baxter wrote:
> Lars Ivar Igesund wrote:
>> Aarti_pl wrote:
>>
>>> Lars Ivar Igesund pisze:
>>>
>>>> As mentioned before, the dancing logos had issues. We were looking
>>>> for a
>>>> logo that could represent power, speed and elegance, much like the
>>>> dance
>>>> and thus a reason for Tango being used as a name for the library. I
>>>> feel
>>>> the new logo represents all those traits nicely.
>>> Well, I would say that name and logo together represents a lack of
>>> cohesion... And I think that it is unintended, isn't it? ;-)
>>
>> A logo is about connotations, not cohesion. The latter can be nice,
>> but is
>> rather uncommon with logos in general. The unusual aspect here may be
>> that
>> images exist that match Tango, but they still don't make for good logos.
>>
> 
> I just like the concept of a standard library with its own logo.  That's
> funny.  And that we're debating about what it should be.  When I thought
> it was a motorcycle thing, I thought hey that's cool.  Maybe they're all
> into motorcycles or something.  Maybe it's an allusion to zen and the
> art of motorcycle maintenance.  I could definitely see that Robert
> Pirsig guy spinning a convincing argument that tangoing and morcycling
> are actually the same thing.

My first impression when I saw the design was that it looked like a car
logo (Bentley, for example).  However, I actually liked that the design
was at once both elegant, simple, and totally uncharacteristic for a
software library.  Most software logos tend to be cute or a bit silly,
and in my opinion not terribly marketable.  This logo, on the other
hand, I'd actually feel pretty good about putting on a polo shirt.

We invested a lot of time into creating a dance-oriented logo with the
same elegance and simplicity and simply couldn't find one we liked.  The
designs were all either so abstract that they were unidentifiable, too
complex, etc.

> Anyway, image googling for "biker logo" turns up a few wings on the
> first page, so I guess I'm not crazy.

One thing that can be said for the current logo is that it seems to
provoke a reaction in everyone that sees it.  That's rarely a bad thing
in marketing ;-)


Sean
January 29, 2008
Re: Website changes/updates
Sean Kelly escribió:
> Bill Baxter wrote:
>> Lars Ivar Igesund wrote:
>>> Aarti_pl wrote:
>>>
>>>> Lars Ivar Igesund pisze:
>>>>
>>>>> As mentioned before, the dancing logos had issues. We were looking
>>>>> for a
>>>>> logo that could represent power, speed and elegance, much like the
>>>>> dance
>>>>> and thus a reason for Tango being used as a name for the library. I
>>>>> feel
>>>>> the new logo represents all those traits nicely.
>>>> Well, I would say that name and logo together represents a lack of
>>>> cohesion... And I think that it is unintended, isn't it? ;-)
>>> A logo is about connotations, not cohesion. The latter can be nice,
>>> but is
>>> rather uncommon with logos in general. The unusual aspect here may be
>>> that
>>> images exist that match Tango, but they still don't make for good logos.
>>>
>> I just like the concept of a standard library with its own logo.  That's
>> funny.  And that we're debating about what it should be.  When I thought
>> it was a motorcycle thing, I thought hey that's cool.  Maybe they're all
>> into motorcycles or something.  Maybe it's an allusion to zen and the
>> art of motorcycle maintenance.  I could definitely see that Robert
>> Pirsig guy spinning a convincing argument that tangoing and morcycling
>> are actually the same thing.
> 
> My first impression when I saw the design was that it looked like a car
> logo (Bentley, for example).  However, I actually liked that the design
> was at once both elegant, simple, and totally uncharacteristic for a
> software library.  Most software logos tend to be cute or a bit silly,
> and in my opinion not terribly marketable.  This logo, on the other
> hand, I'd actually feel pretty good about putting on a polo shirt.
> 
> We invested a lot of time into creating a dance-oriented logo with the
> same elegance and simplicity and simply couldn't find one we liked.  The
> designs were all either so abstract that they were unidentifiable, too
> complex, etc.
> 
>> Anyway, image googling for "biker logo" turns up a few wings on the
>> first page, so I guess I'm not crazy.
> 
> One thing that can be said for the current logo is that it seems to
> provoke a reaction in everyone that sees it.  That's rarely a bad thing
> in marketing ;-)
> 
> 
> Sean

When I saw the logo, I didn't think of cars of motorcycles. I just saw the wings 
and thought "flying." Kinda weird, probably, but not bad, not bad at all.

-- 
Carlos Santander Bernal
January 29, 2008
Re: Website changes/updates
Lars Ivar Igesund wrote:
> As mentioned before, the dancing logos had issues. We were looking for a
> logo that could represent power, speed and elegance, much like the dance
> and thus a reason for Tango being used as a name for the library. I feel
> the new logo represents all those traits nicely.

A couple url's:

Tango: http://www.dsource.org/projects/tango/

Army Air Force wings: 
http://www.wittworldwide.com/images/W2AAFPilotWgPBSterlx.jpg


A historical note: The AAF pin was worn by pilots of piston engine 
aircraft. When those pilots were transitioned to jets, they'd go to a 
jeweler and have the wings "swept back" on their pins.
January 29, 2008
Re: Website changes/updates
Walter Bright wrote:
> Lars Ivar Igesund wrote:
>> As mentioned before, the dancing logos had issues. We were looking for a
>> logo that could represent power, speed and elegance, much like the dance
>> and thus a reason for Tango being used as a name for the library. I feel
>> the new logo represents all those traits nicely.
> 
> A couple url's:
> 
> Tango: http://www.dsource.org/projects/tango/
> 
> Army Air Force wings: 
> http://www.wittworldwide.com/images/W2AAFPilotWgPBSterlx.jpg
> 
> 
> A historical note: The AAF pin was worn by pilots of piston engine 
> aircraft. When those pilots were transitioned to jets, they'd go to a 
> jeweler and have the wings "swept back" on their pins.

I should add that in order to register a trademark (necessary if you 
want to protect it) it needs to be unique. I am not a trademark lawyer, 
but you may have a hard time defending the wings as not being 
"confusingly similar" to other marks.
January 30, 2008
Re: Website changes/updates
"Walter Bright" <newshound1@digitalmars.com> wrote in message 
news:fnmsif$1341$1@digitalmars.com...
> Do a google image search on tango, and I think you'll find a lot of great 
> inspiration for a logo!

since I did that logo (as well as the one for arclib), I think I might add a 
thing or two.
After several dozens of versions, this one was chosen because it works - you 
talk about it, you will remember it - its different, since no other software 
library has something like it, and especially not in D world. It also 
portrays Tangos power. And its cool, its not boring.

I like it.

here is something that awaits a bottle to be rendered:
http://www.vga.hr/tango_final/alc_label.PNG
http://www.vga.hr/tango_final/alc_label_back.PNG
http://www.vga.hr/tango_final/vrat.PNG
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