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July 02, 2008
DMD back end dev-kit
It's been talked about before, but exactly how much money do the people 
who own the copyright to DMD's backend want in order to make it freely 
available freely -- as at least a lib?  It's hard to believe anyone 
would appraise that thing with a high dollar value given its less than 
stellar optimization abilities, and since everyone knows you can't make 
much money off dev tools these days anyway.

I'd happily chip in $100 US if it meant finally having an official D 
compiler that anyone can recompile for themselves just by typing "make dmd".

Or is it more a matter of not being able to find the copyright holders 
in question to ask them?  If so, give us the names and whatever info you 
have, and I bet someone will be able to track 'em down.

--bb
July 02, 2008
Re: DMD back end dev-kit
Hello Bill,

> It's been talked about before, but exactly how much money do the
> people who own the copyright to DMD's backend want in order to make it
> freely available freely -- as at least a lib?  It's hard to believe
> anyone would appraise that thing with a high dollar value given its
> less than stellar optimization abilities, and since everyone knows you
> can't make much money off dev tools these days anyway.
> 
> I'd happily chip in $100 US if it meant finally having an official D
> compiler that anyone can recompile for themselves just by typing "make
> dmd".
> 
> Or is it more a matter of not being able to find the copyright holders
> in question to ask them?  If so, give us the names and whatever info
> you have, and I bet someone will be able to track 'em down.
> 
> --bb
> 


I'd give another $100.

-JJR
July 02, 2008
Re: DMD back end dev-kit
John Reimer Wrote:

> Hello Bill,
> 
> > It's been talked about before, but exactly how much money do the
> > people who own the copyright to DMD's backend want in order to make it
> > freely available freely -- as at least a lib?  It's hard to believe
> > anyone would appraise that thing with a high dollar value given its
> > less than stellar optimization abilities, and since everyone knows you
> > can't make much money off dev tools these days anyway.
> > 
> > I'd happily chip in $100 US if it meant finally having an official D
> > compiler that anyone can recompile for themselves just by typing "make
> > dmd".
> > 
> > Or is it more a matter of not being able to find the copyright holders
> > in question to ask them?  If so, give us the names and whatever info
> > you have, and I bet someone will be able to track 'em down.
> > 
> > --bb
> > 
> 
> 
> I'd give another $100.
> 
> -JJR

"Economic Stimulus Act" FTW.

Seriously, though, there's GDC. Maybe LLVMDC, too. So while I wouldn't 
say no to a compiling lib of the backend, is it really needed?
July 02, 2008
Re: DMD back end dev-kit
Robert Fraser wrote:
> John Reimer Wrote:
> 
>> Hello Bill,
>>
>>> It's been talked about before, but exactly how much money do the
>>> people who own the copyright to DMD's backend want in order to make it
>>> freely available freely -- as at least a lib?  It's hard to believe
>>> anyone would appraise that thing with a high dollar value given its
>>> less than stellar optimization abilities, and since everyone knows you
>>> can't make much money off dev tools these days anyway.
>>>
>>> I'd happily chip in $100 US if it meant finally having an official D
>>> compiler that anyone can recompile for themselves just by typing "make
>>> dmd".
>>>
>>> Or is it more a matter of not being able to find the copyright holders
>>> in question to ask them?  If so, give us the names and whatever info
>>> you have, and I bet someone will be able to track 'em down.
>>>
>>> --bb
>>>
>>
>> I'd give another $100.
>>
>> -JJR
> 
> "Economic Stimulus Act" FTW.
> 
> Seriously, though, there's GDC. Maybe LLVMDC, too. So while I wouldn't 
> say no to a compiling lib of the backend, is it really needed?

GDC's problem is that it is not well maintained.
LLVMDC's problem is that it just isn't there yet.

Until one of the above two situations changes, DMD will be the compiler 
I actually use.

And it's worth at least $100 to me in the mean time to be able to build 
a working version of the D compiler I actually use.  Being able to fix 
bugs for myself or with the help of the community means at least that 
much to me.

So it's not a question of whether it is "needed".  Obviously if it were 
really needed then none of us would be here on this NG.  D would have 
already failed.  It is wanted.  And the amount I want it right now is 
about $100-worth.

--bb
July 02, 2008
Re: DMD back end dev-kit
Hello Robert,

> John Reimer Wrote:
> 
>> Hello Bill,
>> 
>>> It's been talked about before, but exactly how much money do the
>>> people who own the copyright to DMD's backend want in order to make
>>> it freely available freely -- as at least a lib?  It's hard to
>>> believe anyone would appraise that thing with a high dollar value
>>> given its less than stellar optimization abilities, and since
>>> everyone knows you can't make much money off dev tools these days
>>> anyway.
>>> 
>>> I'd happily chip in $100 US if it meant finally having an official D
>>> compiler that anyone can recompile for themselves just by typing
>>> "make dmd".
>>> 
>>> Or is it more a matter of not being able to find the copyright
>>> holders in question to ask them?  If so, give us the names and
>>> whatever info you have, and I bet someone will be able to track 'em
>>> down.
>>> 
>>> --bb
>>> 
>> I'd give another $100.
>> 
>> -JJR
>> 
> "Economic Stimulus Act" FTW.
> 
> Seriously, though, there's GDC. Maybe LLVMDC, too. So while I wouldn't
> say no to a compiling lib of the backend, is it really needed?
> 


LLVMDC is only partially operational.  gdc hasn't proven that it can "keep 
up".  They are both very important projects, but having the complete dmd 
compiler means even more potential for active fixing of elusive bugs in the 
reference compiler, code generator optimization and updates for more recent 
instructions sets, improved object file format support on win32 (coff), shared-lib 
fixes for linux(?), experimentation, improved tool support, compiler embedding, 
immediate bug hunting expeditions for library developers... and easier distribution 
of the compiler in general -- many things that Walter doesn't have time to 
fix.  It's not likely to happen even with the economic incentive.  But having 
a completely open reference compiler can mean a lot when it comes to getting 
D adopted.  This has been one of D's major handicaps, I think, for a long 
time.

-JJR
July 02, 2008
Re: DMD back end dev-kit
在 Wed, 02 Jul 2008 11:51:01 +0800,Bill Baxter  
<dnewsgroup@billbaxter.com> 写道:

> Robert Fraser wrote:
>> John Reimer Wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Bill,
>>>
>>>> It's been talked about before, but exactly how much money do the
>>>> people who own the copyright to DMD's backend want in order to make it
>>>> freely available freely -- as at least a lib?  It's hard to believe
>>>> anyone would appraise that thing with a high dollar value given its
>>>> less than stellar optimization abilities, and since everyone knows you
>>>> can't make much money off dev tools these days anyway.
>>>>
>>>> I'd happily chip in $100 US if it meant finally having an official D
>>>> compiler that anyone can recompile for themselves just by typing "make
>>>> dmd".
>>>>
>>>> Or is it more a matter of not being able to find the copyright holders
>>>> in question to ask them?  If so, give us the names and whatever info
>>>> you have, and I bet someone will be able to track 'em down.
>>>>
>>>> --bb
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'd give another $100.
>>>
>>> -JJR
>>  "Economic Stimulus Act" FTW.
>>  Seriously, though, there's GDC. Maybe LLVMDC, too. So while I wouldn't  
>> say no to a compiling lib of the backend, is it really needed?
>
> GDC's problem is that it is not well maintained.
> LLVMDC's problem is that it just isn't there yet.
>
> Until one of the above two situations changes, DMD will be the compiler  
> I actually use.
>
> And it's worth at least $100 to me in the mean time to be able to build  
> a working version of the D compiler I actually use.  Being able to fix  
> bugs for myself or with the help of the community means at least that  
> much to me.
>
> So it's not a question of whether it is "needed".  Obviously if it were  
> really needed then none of us would be here on this NG.  D would have  
> already failed.  It is wanted.  And the amount I want it right now is  
> about $100-worth.
>
> --bb

From my point of view, every patches should apply to DMD frontend, so the  
community gets benefit from it.
While the backend dev kit gives the possibility of not *sending* the patch  
to DMD.
The current problem of DMD development is not every patch accepted or  
reviewed before the next DMD release.
Time & partial class is the main problem prevent me from doing some  
backend related stuff. I hope more people can get involved into this. And  
make dparser an experiment ground so people can firstly test their willing  
features in dparser.

-- 
使用 Opera 革命性的电子邮件客户程序: http://www.opera.com/mail/
July 02, 2008
Re: DMD back end dev-kit
Also opensource backend will be needed in phobos for runtime assembler 
and runtime D compiling feature :)

Runtime generations:
C# has System.Reflection.Assembly that is runtime assembler.
Xbyak library is runtime assembler for C++.
tcc can be used as runtime C compiler.
but D?

Bill Baxter Wrote:
> It's been talked about before, but exactly how much money do the people 
> who own the copyright to DMD's backend want in order to make it freely 
> available freely -- as at least a lib?  It's hard to believe anyone 
> would appraise that thing with a high dollar value given its less than 
> stellar optimization abilities, and since everyone knows you can't make 
> much money off dev tools these days anyway.
> 
> I'd happily chip in $100 US if it meant finally having an official D 
> compiler that anyone can recompile for themselves just by typing "make 
> dmd".
> 
> Or is it more a matter of not being able to find the copyright holders 
> in question to ask them?  If so, give us the names and whatever info you 
> have, and I bet someone will be able to track 'em down.
> 
> --bb
July 02, 2008
Re: DMD back end dev-kit
On Wed, 02 Jul 2008 05:03:32 +0400, John Reimer <terminal.node@gmail.com>  
wrote:

> Hello Bill,
>
>> It's been talked about before, but exactly how much money do the
>> people who own the copyright to DMD's backend want in order to make it
>> freely available freely -- as at least a lib?  It's hard to believe
>> anyone would appraise that thing with a high dollar value given its
>> less than stellar optimization abilities, and since everyone knows you
>> can't make much money off dev tools these days anyway.
>>  I'd happily chip in $100 US if it meant finally having an official D
>> compiler that anyone can recompile for themselves just by typing "make
>> dmd".
>>  Or is it more a matter of not being able to find the copyright holders
>> in question to ask them?  If so, give us the names and whatever info
>> you have, and I bet someone will be able to track 'em down.
>>  --bb
>>
>
>
> I'd give another $100.
>
> -JJR
>
>

I would donate $100 for that, too.

Not that much for a few man-year project, for we *NEED* that urgently.
Plain old .lib file with stripped-off debug symbols and a dmd-only license  
would do the trick.

Please, Walter!
July 02, 2008
Re: DMD back end dev-kit
Koroskin Denis <2korden@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 02 Jul 2008 05:03:32 +0400, John Reimer  
> <terminal.node@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hello Bill,
>>
>>> It's been talked about before, but exactly how much money do the
>>> people who own the copyright to DMD's backend want in order to make it
>>> freely available freely -- as at least a lib?  It's hard to believe
>>> anyone would appraise that thing with a high dollar value given its
>>> less than stellar optimization abilities, and since everyone knows you
>>> can't make much money off dev tools these days anyway.
>>>  I'd happily chip in $100 US if it meant finally having an official D
>>> compiler that anyone can recompile for themselves just by typing "make
>>> dmd".
>>>  Or is it more a matter of not being able to find the copyright holders
>>> in question to ask them?  If so, give us the names and whatever info
>>> you have, and I bet someone will be able to track 'em down.
>>>  --bb
>>>
>>
>>
>> I'd give another $100.
>>
>> -JJR
>>
>>
>
> I would donate $100 for that, too.
>
> Not that much for a few man-year project, for we *NEED* that urgently.
> Plain old .lib file with stripped-off debug symbols and a dmd-only  
> license would do the trick.
>
> Please, Walter!

Add another $100 from me.

-- Simen
July 02, 2008
Re: DMD back end dev-kit
Bill Baxter wrote:
> It's been talked about before, but exactly how much money do the people 
> who own the copyright to DMD's backend want in order to make it freely 
> available freely -- as at least a lib?  It's hard to believe anyone 
> would appraise that thing with a high dollar value given its less than 
> stellar optimization abilities, and since everyone knows you can't make 
> much money off dev tools these days anyway.
> 
> I'd happily chip in $100 US if it meant finally having an official D 
> compiler that anyone can recompile for themselves just by typing "make 
> dmd".
> 
> Or is it more a matter of not being able to find the copyright holders 
> in question to ask them?  If so, give us the names and whatever info you 
> have, and I bet someone will be able to track 'em down.
> 
> --bb

If this is going to happen I'll be happy to spend 100 euro (~$157) or more.

--
Mark Sanders.
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