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July 28, 2008
Re: Wish: Variable Not Used Warning
Bill Baxter Wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 2:56 AM, Robert Fraser
> <fraserofthenight@gmail.com>wrote:
> 
> > VS is crap (when the VS team is using Source Insight to develop it, you
> > know something is wrong...). Even Visual C# pales in comparison to what
> > I can do with Eclipse + JDT for Java; you have to use ReSharper to get
> > the functionality a real IDE can provide.
> >
> 
> Hmm, Brunos is an Eclipse fan too.  So maybe when you guys say "an IDE" you
> really mean "Eclipse+JDT for Java".  Are there any other IDEs, for any
> language, out there that you would deem acceptable?  Just curious.
> 
> --bb

For C++, I like SourceInisht. For C#, I use VS + ReSharper (vanilla VS 
sucks). I don't like either as much as I like JDT, but what can you do?
July 28, 2008
Re: Wish: Variable Not Used Warning
Bill Baxter Wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 2:56 AM, Robert Fraser
> <fraserofthenight@gmail.com>wrote:
> 
> > VS is crap (when the VS team is using Source Insight to develop it, you
> > know something is wrong...). Even Visual C# pales in comparison to what
> > I can do with Eclipse + JDT for Java; you have to use ReSharper to get
> > the functionality a real IDE can provide.
> >
> 
> Hmm, Brunos is an Eclipse fan too.  So maybe when you guys say "an IDE" you
> really mean "Eclipse+JDT for Java".  Are there any other IDEs, for any
> language, out there that you would deem acceptable?  Just curious.
> 
> --bb
> 

I prefer IntelliJ for Java development, although Eclipse or NetBeans are both good tools. IntelliJ has better (IMHO) code completion, macro and refactoring capabilities, but the difference is probably just that I've used IntelliJ more. If I had to pick one feature that stands out it is the refactoring.

IntelliJ is a commercial product but they have a policy of making it available to open source projects at no cost (which I've been the beneficiary of).

Paul
July 29, 2008
Re: Wish: Variable Not Used Warning
Robert Fraser Wrote:

> It might take 5 seconds if you click "go to definition" and 
> it has to open a new file, but that's vs 2 minutes of searching 
> for an import, finding the file location, and using find to get 
> to the definition in that file.

When you're accustomed to load times of less than 1 second, 5 
seconds can feel like an eternity.

> If you've been using ed to write code for the last 30 years, the 
> mental concept of using your $2000 computer to its full potential 

Ed was not the text editor I was referring to. 

> to help you write software is mind-boggling. 

If I had been referring to Ed or Notepad then I would agree 
with you. 

> just can't deal with a 1-minute startup time for a product you're 
> going to be using for 8 hours, well all the more power to ya; no 
> amount of productivity gains could make you willing to switch.

You've hit the nail right on the head.  

When you're expecting a sub second response times, having to put 
up with minute/second delays is rather off putting, to the point
of being counter productive.

> I'm not saying "more complex is always better," but why let all 
> that processing power go to waste?

But all that power is not going to waste. All that processing power 
lets the computer respond at an amazingly fast speed. It responds 
so fast it feels like it is not even there.
July 29, 2008
Re: Wish: Variable Not Used Warning
Bill Baxter wrote:
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 2:56 AM, Robert Fraser 
> <fraserofthenight@gmail.com <mailto:fraserofthenight@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
>     VS is crap (when the VS team is using Source Insight to develop it, you
>     know something is wrong...). Even Visual C# pales in comparison to what
>     I can do with Eclipse + JDT for Java; you have to use ReSharper to get
>     the functionality a real IDE can provide.
> 
> 
> Hmm, Brunos is an Eclipse fan too.  So maybe when you guys say "an IDE" 
> you really mean "Eclipse+JDT for Java".

This makes sense now. There might not be so much disagreement after all.
1: "my favourite text editor is better than the IDEs I've used (VS)"
2: "my favourite IDE is better than any text editor"

Both of these statements could be true.
July 29, 2008
Re: Wish: Variable Not Used Warning
Robert Fraser wrote:
> Bill Baxter Wrote:
> 
>> On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 2:56 AM, Robert Fraser
>> <fraserofthenight@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> VS is crap (when the VS team is using Source Insight to develop it, you
>>> know something is wrong...). Even Visual C# pales in comparison to what
>>> I can do with Eclipse + JDT for Java; you have to use ReSharper to get
>>> the functionality a real IDE can provide.
>>>
>> Hmm, Brunos is an Eclipse fan too.  So maybe when you guys say "an IDE" you
>> really mean "Eclipse+JDT for Java".  Are there any other IDEs, for any
>> language, out there that you would deem acceptable?  Just curious.
>>
>> --bb
> 
> For C++, I like SourceInisht. For C#, I use VS + ReSharper (vanilla VS 
> sucks). I don't like either as much as I like JDT, but what can you do?

Have you tried CDT for eclipse? Netbeans also has a c++ plugin.
I'm sure that there's also an eclipse plugin for C#.
July 30, 2008
Re: Wish: Variable Not Used Warning
Bill Baxter wrote:
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 2:56 AM, Robert Fraser 
> <fraserofthenight@gmail.com <mailto:fraserofthenight@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
>     VS is crap (when the VS team is using Source Insight to develop it, you
>     know something is wrong...). Even Visual C# pales in comparison to what
>     I can do with Eclipse + JDT for Java; you have to use ReSharper to get
>     the functionality a real IDE can provide.
> 
> 
> Hmm, Brunos is an Eclipse fan too.  So maybe when you guys say "an IDE" 
> you really mean "Eclipse+JDT for Java".  Are there any other IDEs, for 
> any language, out there that you would deem acceptable?  Just curious.
> 
> --bb

There's Eclipse+CDT, like Yigal mentioned. Although I haven't used it or 
examined it in-depth recently, I think it has advanced a lot in the last 
years, and is on-par, if not better, that VS. Configuring a compiler 
might not be as easy as VS, since CDT doesn't come bundled with one, but 
on semantic features (code completion, open/find references, 
refactoring) it seems to be much better than VS is. Dunno about debugging.
IntelliJ is also pretty good, but it's a paid IDE.

But really, for the point I was making (productivity of simple tools vs. 
IDEs), it did still apply with many other IDEs, like VS, KDev, etc.. I 
wasn't thinking of Eclipse alone.

-- 
Bruno Medeiros - Software Developer, MSc. in CS/E graduate
http://www.prowiki.org/wiki4d/wiki.cgi?BrunoMedeiros#D
August 05, 2008
Re: Wish: Variable Not Used Warning
Nick Sabalausky wrote:

> 1. There is no sufficient D lint tool either currently in
> existence or on the foreseeable horizon (at least as far as I'm
> aware). 

But this is at most a requirement for building a lint tool, not an 
argument for incorporating a lint tool into a compiler.


> 2. The compiler is already in a position to provide such
> diagnostics (and in fact, already does for certain other
> conditions). 

This again is no argument for a lint tool in a compiler. It is at most 
an argument for a case where there is some checking already built into 
a compiler then to be able to toggle its behaviour on or off. 

>> For at least huge parts of these latter tasks a reevaluation of
>> some static aspects of semantics of the application is useless
>> but time consuming.
> 
> Hence, optional.

But why optional? If one needs the code one needs no checking any more. 
If one needs the checking, one needs no code.


>> In addition and by definition lint tools are not capable of
>> doing more than this.
> 
> Which is part of what makes a compiler inherently more
> general-purpose, and a lint tool a mere symptom of a compiler's
> shortcomings. 

This is based on the assumption, that a compiler without a lint 
functionality has shortcomings, which has still to be proven.

> Plus, an
> external lint tool is, by necessity, going to incorporate a lot of
> duplicated functionality from the compiler (roughly the whole
> front-end).
> Although I suppose that could be moved into a shared
> library to avoid duplicated maintenance efforts. But since you
> mentioned that having lint work being done in the compiler would 
> be uselessly time consuming (Again, uselessly time consuming only
> if there's no switch to turn such checking on/off. Also, I assume
> you're referring to the speed of compiling), then I should point
> out that with an external lint tool, you're likely to have plenty
> of duplicated processing going on (lexing and parsing once for the
> external lint, and again for the real compiler). 

This is an argument only for having an intermediate representation 
suitable for the compiler and the lint tool. 

Interestingly IBM wants to sell the integration of a lint tool into the 
IDE:
http://www-306.ibm.com/software/rational/announce/swanalyzer/

-manfred

-- 
Maybe some knowledge of some types of disagreeing and their relation 
can turn out to be useful:
http://blog.createdebate.com/2008/04/07/writing-strong-arguments/
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