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August 03, 2008
Re: What is Invariant Good For?
Walter Bright wrote:

> I might as well have used [...]

A problem is, that your article refers to "existing terminology 
confusion"---then more of the same should be avoided.

-manfred 

-- 
Maybe some knowledge of some types of disagreeing and their relation 
can turn out to be useful:
http://blog.createdebate.com/2008/04/07/writing-strong-arguments/
August 03, 2008
Re: What is Invariant Good For?
On Sun, 03 Aug 2008 14:33:55 +0400, Knud Soerensen  
<4tuu4k002@sneakemail.com> wrote:

> Peter C. Chapin wrote:
>> Walter Bright wrote:
>>
>>> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/6ui1q/d_what_is_invariant_good_for/
>>>
>>
>> For what it's worth, I agree with some of the posts on the article
>> itself that "immutable" would be a better word to describe this concept
>> than "invariant." I've done some functional programming and I
>> immediately understand what immutable means (and why it is good). With
>> invariant I had to read about it first. The word invariant makes me
>> think of class invariants and loop invariants... a somewhat different
>> concept.
>>
>> Peter
>
> I agree invariant also leads my thoughts into other things.
>
> Walter says in a comments that there is alot of momentum behind  
> invariant.
>
> To verify that I have made a poll, please vote and let us see
> http://jyte.com/cl/immutable-would-be-better-than-invariant-in-the-d-programming-language
>
>

Nice idea but... I wouldn't sign up for the site just for a vote. Sorry.
August 03, 2008
Re: What is Invariant Good For?
On Sun, 03 Aug 2008 02:52:10 +0100, Sean Kelly <sean@invisibleduck.org>  
wrote:

> == Quote from Walter Bright (newshound1@digitalmars.com)'s article
>> Bruce Adams wrote:
>> > It strikes me that 'dibblego' is some kind of troll or an extreme  
>> pedant
>> > from a parallel experience.
>> > I'm not sure how much communicating with it is educational. I  
>> understand
>> > all the terms he's using but none of the meanings he
>> > is ascribing to them. And calling you a pseudo intellectual for no
>> > obvious reason strikes me as very troll-like not to mention
>> > rude.
>> His post missed the point of the article by focusing on the definition
>> of a word. At some point, who cares what the word is, it's the concept
>> that matters.
>
> But words represent concepts... generally very specific ones.  It's why
> writing poetry is so darn hard.

Actually its quite the reverse. In normal usage (insert your definition
of normal here) words have several grey, slightly overlapping and fuzzy  
meanings.
And that's ignoring the synonyms and sounds-a-likes. Its only when you try  
to
write in a so called technical English that meanings get narrowed down and  
eve
then it doesn't take much to find a confusing alternate meaning for them.  
As
programmers we are uniquely blessed/cursed with 'words' that mean  
precisely one
thing when passed to a specific compiler in a certain context. :-)

Regards,

Bruce.
August 03, 2008
Re: What is Invariant Good For?
Koroskin Denis wrote:
> On Sun, 03 Aug 2008 14:33:55 +0400, Knud Soerensen
> <4tuu4k002@sneakemail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Peter C. Chapin wrote:
>>> Walter Bright wrote:
>>>
>>>> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/6ui1q/d_what_is_invariant_good_for/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> For what it's worth, I agree with some of the posts on the article
>>> itself that "immutable" would be a better word to describe this concept
>>> than "invariant." I've done some functional programming and I
>>> immediately understand what immutable means (and why it is good). With
>>> invariant I had to read about it first. The word invariant makes me
>>> think of class invariants and loop invariants... a somewhat different
>>> concept.
>>>
>>> Peter
>>
>> I agree invariant also leads my thoughts into other things.
>>
>> Walter says in a comments that there is alot of momentum behind
>> invariant.
>>
>> To verify that I have made a poll, please vote and let us see
>> http://jyte.com/cl/immutable-would-be-better-than-invariant-in-the-d-programming-language
>>
>>
>>
> 
> Nice idea but... I wouldn't sign up for the site just for a vote. Sorry.

The site uses openid, so if you already have a openid you can just
login. A lot of big sites provide openids, so you might already have one
see here http://openid.net/get/

-- 
Crowdnews.eu - a social news site based on sharing instead of voting.
August 03, 2008
Re: What is Invariant Good For?
Manfred_Nowak wrote:
> Walter Bright wrote:
> 
>> I might as well have used [...]
> 
> A problem is, that your article refers to "existing terminology 
> confusion"---then more of the same should be avoided.

The thing is, nobody has actually been confused about the meaning of 
invariant as applied to data, as opposed to class invariants. In 
contrast, what 'const' means when applied to data has plenty of existing 
confusion.
August 03, 2008
Re: What is Invariant Good For?
== Quote from Walter Bright (newshound1@digitalmars.com)'s article
> Manfred_Nowak wrote:
> > Walter Bright wrote:
> >
> >> I might as well have used [...]
> >
> > A problem is, that your article refers to "existing terminology
> > confusion"---then more of the same should be avoided.
> The thing is, nobody has actually been confused about the meaning of
> invariant as applied to data, as opposed to class invariants. In
> contrast, what 'const' means when applied to data has plenty of existing
> confusion.

I disagree.  The meaning of 'const' is quite clear in D 1.0.  At
least for me :p  And while I understand the redefinition of 'const'
in D 2.0, it's not intuitive given its use in D 1.0.


Sean
August 03, 2008
Re: What is Invariant Good For?
Bruce Adams Wrote:

> On Sun, 03 Aug 2008 02:52:10 +0100, Sean Kelly <sean@invisibleduck.org>  
> wrote:
> 
> > == Quote from Walter Bright (newshound1@digitalmars.com)'s article
> >> Bruce Adams wrote:
> >> > It strikes me that 'dibblego' is some kind of troll or an extreme  
> >> pedant
> >> > from a parallel experience.
> >> > I'm not sure how much communicating with it is educational. I  
> >> understand
> >> > all the terms he's using but none of the meanings he
> >> > is ascribing to them. And calling you a pseudo intellectual for no
> >> > obvious reason strikes me as very troll-like not to mention
> >> > rude.
> >> His post missed the point of the article by focusing on the definition
> >> of a word. At some point, who cares what the word is, it's the concept
> >> that matters.
> >
> > But words represent concepts... generally very specific ones.  It's why
> > writing poetry is so darn hard.
> 
> Actually its quite the reverse. In normal usage (insert your definition
> of normal here) words have several grey, slightly overlapping and fuzzy  
> meanings.
> And that's ignoring the synonyms and sounds-a-likes. Its only when you try  
> to
> write in a so called technical English that meanings get narrowed down and  
> eve
> then it doesn't take much to find a confusing alternate meaning for them.  
> As
> programmers we are uniquely blessed/cursed with 'words' that mean  
> precisely one
> thing when passed to a specific compiler in a certain context. :-)
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Bruce.

All true, but the keywords that are most controversial are ones that are overloaded to mean different things in different contexts.

The best example is "enum". Walter correctly observes that, from a compiler designer's point of view, a list of enumerated values is the same as a "manifest constant", so he re-uses the keyword. To a programmer (or at least this progammer) the two things are conceptually different, used for different reasons. I find the usage confusing.

This sort of thing is common when you put engineers in charge of the user interface. The aspects of the problem that are important to the implementation are paramount to the implementer and it's easy to lose sight of the fact that the user doesn't care. What's intuitive to the user is not what's intuitive to the designer.

"Invariant" has a specific meaning to programmers with respect to contracts.  "Invariant" as Walter uses it is the same, but different. It is illuminating that those who commented on Walter's article focussed on the keyword and not on the concept. It's the intuition of the designer not matching the intuition of the user again.

I know we went round and round regarding this keyword and Walter's right -- at some point you just have to make a decision and go with it. But when there's so much complaint about the decision it may be time to reconsider.

Paul
August 04, 2008
Re: What is Invariant Good For?
Paul D. Anderson wrote:
> I know we went round and round regarding this keyword and Walter's
> right -- at some point you just have to make a decision and go with
> it. But when there's so much complaint about the decision it may be
> time to reconsider.

I guarantee it that if "invariant" is changed to something else, an 
alternate set of people will rise and say it's now screwed up :-) 
because, in reality, there is no right answer.
August 04, 2008
Re: What is Invariant Good For?
Walter Bright <newshound1@digitalmars.com> wrote in news:g75lsg$1j2o$1
@digitalmars.com:

> Paul D. Anderson wrote:
>> I know we went round and round regarding this keyword and Walter's
>> right -- at some point you just have to make a decision and go with
>> it. But when there's so much complaint about the decision it may be
>> time to reconsider.
> 
> I guarantee it that if "invariant" is changed to something else, an 
> alternate set of people will rise and say it's now screwed up :-) 
> because, in reality, there is no right answer.

I like "invariant".  The expression "invariant variable" has a satisfyingly 
oxymoronic ring to it.  :-)

-- 
JMNorris
August 04, 2008
Re: What is Invariant Good For?
Walter Bright wrote:
> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/6ui1q/d_what_is_invariant_good_for/


not here to fight the term or meaning but I think short words should be 
used, faster to type, shorter lines, less likely to miss type.  Just 
like we used const in place of constant.  Just my $.02

invar = invariant
sync = synchronized

-Wyv
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