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May 08, 2009
What's the current state of D?
Hi all.
When I last used D a couple years ago, 2.0 was the experimental branch and 
1.0 was stable. Now that I have a little time on my hands I'm wondering: 
what is the current landscape? Is 2.0 approaching any sort of stability? Are 
there still two competing runtime libraries or have they been merged? 
Basically I want to know if it's worth using 2.0 for anything of importance 
or is it still in flux?
Thanks,

Ameer
May 08, 2009
Re: What's the current state of D?
Hello Ameer,

> Hi all.
> When I last used D a couple years ago, 2.0 was the experimental branch and
> 1.0 was stable.

still true

> Now that I have a little time on my hands I'm wondering:
> what is the current landscape? Is 2.0 approaching any sort of stability?

the const system is stable and now it's starting to play with threading

> Are
> there still two competing runtime libraries or have they been merged?

No not for 1.0 (and they never will be) but /when/ Tango gets ported to 2.0 
they will coexist.

> Basically I want to know if it's worth using 2.0 for anything of
> importance
> or is it still in flux?

Don't use it for bet-the-bank code. Use it for, fun-n-games code. Between 
them, it's up to you.


> Thanks,
> Ameer
>
May 08, 2009
Re: What's the current state of D?
BCS Wrote:

> Hello Ameer,
> 
> > Hi all.
> > When I last used D a couple years ago, 2.0 was the experimental branch and
> > 1.0 was stable.
> 
> still true
> 
> > Now that I have a little time on my hands I'm wondering:
> > what is the current landscape? Is 2.0 approaching any sort of stability?
> 
> the const system is stable and now it's starting to play with threading
> 
> > Are
> > there still two competing runtime libraries or have they been merged?
> 
> No not for 1.0 (and they never will be) but /when/ Tango gets ported to 2.0 
> they will coexist.
> 
> > Basically I want to know if it's worth using 2.0 for anything of
> > importance
> > or is it still in flux?
> 
> Don't use it for bet-the-bank code. Use it for, fun-n-games code. Between 
> them, it's up to you.
> 
> 
> > Thanks,
> > Ameer
> > 
> 

This is the sort of answer that will kill D. The guy comes back after 2 years, asks a straight question, and get's told "business as usual, we're still arguing among ourselves about what it should be".

Maybe Tiobe is right! Lots of others may not even bother to ask. They just visit the newsgroup, read a page of it, and conclude "same old, same old", and go away.

D should be D, not maybe 1.043, or let's wait a while and see what happens with D2. Potential real users hate uncertainty. If they are going to commit, then D must do so too.
May 08, 2009
Re: What's the current state of D?
Steve Teale wrote:
> This is the sort of answer that will kill D. The guy comes back after
> 2 years, asks a straight question, and get's told "business as usual,
> we're still arguing among ourselves about what it should be".
> 
> Maybe Tiobe is right! Lots of others may not even bother to ask. They
> just visit the newsgroup, read a page of it, and conclude "same old,
> same old", and go away.
> 
> D should be D, not maybe 1.043, or let's wait a while and see what
> happens with D2. Potential real users hate uncertainty. If they are
> going to commit, then D must do so too.

What bothers me about this sentiment is that every other mainstream 
language undergoes revision, sometimes major ones, but that never seems 
to be an excuse for people to not use it.

For example, C++ is quite in flux with C++0x.

The only languages that are not undergoing revision are dead ones.
May 08, 2009
Re: What's the current state of D?
Walter Bright wrote:
> Steve Teale wrote:
>> This is the sort of answer that will kill D. The guy comes back after
>> 2 years, asks a straight question, and get's told "business as usual,
>> we're still arguing among ourselves about what it should be".
>>
>> Maybe Tiobe is right! Lots of others may not even bother to ask. They
>> just visit the newsgroup, read a page of it, and conclude "same old,
>> same old", and go away.
>>
>> D should be D, not maybe 1.043, or let's wait a while and see what
>> happens with D2. Potential real users hate uncertainty. If they are
>> going to commit, then D must do so too.
> 
> What bothers me about this sentiment is that every other mainstream 
> language undergoes revision, sometimes major ones, but that never seems 
> to be an excuse for people to not use it.
> 
> For example, C++ is quite in flux with C++0x.
> 
> The only languages that are not undergoing revision are dead ones.

But C++ programs still compile and run correctly with C++0x compilers. I 
bet none of the projects on dsource are even compilable with dmd2 (even 
if they were written for D2.0). And _many_ projects probably need minor 
fixes, before they compile with the latest dmd1 compiler.
May 08, 2009
Re: What's the current state of D?
Walter Bright Wrote:

> Steve Teale wrote:
> > This is the sort of answer that will kill D. The guy comes back after
> > 2 years, asks a straight question, and get's told "business as usual,
> > we're still arguing among ourselves about what it should be".
> > 
> > Maybe Tiobe is right! Lots of others may not even bother to ask. They
> > just visit the newsgroup, read a page of it, and conclude "same old,
> > same old", and go away.
> > 
> > D should be D, not maybe 1.043, or let's wait a while and see what
> > happens with D2. Potential real users hate uncertainty. If they are
> > going to commit, then D must do so too.
> 
> What bothers me about this sentiment is that every other mainstream 
> language undergoes revision, sometimes major ones, but that never seems 
> to be an excuse for people to not use it.
> 
> For example, C++ is quite in flux with C++0x.
> 
> The only languages that are not undergoing revision are dead ones.

Yes Walter, but C++ went through a tedious standardization process - itself a long argument. So there was some basis for people to think that it had 'got there'.

But to come back after 2 years and find the same stuff still going on is depressing - been there done that. OK, it didn't put me off, I'm still in there, but it bothers me. I'd be dishonest if I said otherwise.

I am not criticizing you. I think you are doing a great job under the pressure of a slew of suggestions. But maybe a line in the sand at some point?

OK so for those who crave stability there is D1.x, but when all the focus appears to be on D2, what level of confidence is afforded to D1 users. Can a project Manager cross his heart and say that D1 will still be alive and well in five years time?
May 08, 2009
Re: What's the current state of D?
grauzone wrote:
> But C++ programs still compile and run correctly with C++0x compilers.

True enough, but that wasn't true for C++98, or C89. Nobody refused to 
use C or C++ because of that.

> I bet none of the projects on dsource are even compilable with dmd2 (even 
> if they were written for D2.0).

Take any C++ project from 15 years ago and I bet it won't compile today, 
either.

> And _many_ projects probably need minor 
> fixes, before they compile with the latest dmd1 compiler.

Nearly all of those are due to inadvertent reliance on bugs in D1. You 
see this quite a bit in the C++ world. Every time g++ gets updated, I 
have to tweak something in my sources.

Every binary release of dmd is available for download. If you require an 
unchanging compiler, it's trivial to operate that way. dmd isn't going 
to auto-update itself and break your compiles.
May 08, 2009
Re: What's the current state of D?
Steve Teale wrote:
> I am not criticizing you. I think you are doing a great job under the
> pressure of a slew of suggestions. But maybe a line in the sand at
> some point?

But there *is* a line in the sand - D1.

> OK so for those who crave stability there is D1.x, but when all the
> focus appears to be on D2, what level of confidence is afforded to D1
> users. Can a project Manager cross his heart and say that D1 will
> still be alive and well in five years time?

This just makes me very frustrated. Every fix going into D2 that also 
applies to D1 has been folded into D1. There are even some fixes that 
only apply to D1 that only go into D1. These average about 20 per month. 
D1 even got the FreeBSD port before D2. What other language gets that 
kind of support?
May 08, 2009
Re: What's the current state of D?
Nobody is saying that you don't put enough effort into making it stable 
or so. It's just sad reality, that the unstable state of the D toolchain 
drives away users and potential users.

Anyway, having a stable version of D and making the full compiler source 
available were great steps into the right direction.
May 08, 2009
Re: What's the current state of D?
> Nearly all of those are due to inadvertent reliance on bugs in D1. You 
> see this quite a bit in the C++ world. Every time g++ gets updated, I 
> have to tweak something in my sources.

In the case of D, the problem is that sometimes you don't really know if 
it's a bug or a feature.
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