On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 15:10:44 +0300, Don <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:

> Denis Koroskin wrote:
>> On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 13:48:05 +0300, dolive <dolive89@sina.com> wrote:
>>
>>> dolive дµ½:
>>>
>>>> thank's ddmd ! it¡¯s too great !
>>>> http://www.dsource.org/projects/ddmd
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> dolive
>>>
>>> may I ask how many people work for it now ? thank's !
>>>
>>> dolive
>>>
>>  Just me.
>>  Travis Boucher has shown his interest in contribution, but he currently
>> has issues with D2 not working on FreeBSD. To quote him:
>>
>>> I have dmd working, and druntime (which was a quick hack to make work, but should work well enough).  The problems I am having at the moment is with phobos,  mostly because I don't fully understand how phobos interacts with druntime (certain things seem to be duplicated between druntime and phobos).
>>
>>> Once I figure out how all that works (which I'll want to do anyway for ddmd), I should have a working port of D2 for FreeBSD.
>>  You can join the project, too, developing is not hard at all. No special knowledge is required since porting code is pretty much a straightforward process. Everyone who is interested is welcome. Contact me if you need help to get yourself started.
>
> Please mention on your wiki that you're using Mercurial! It wasn't at all obvious, and there's no docs about where the repository is.
> I figured it out eventually, but it took a bit of guesswork. (This info should be automatically provided by dsource, but it's not).
>
> It's a great project.

Thanks, done. There was some info about different CVS, their relative path etc, but I couldn't find it from a quick glance.

Denis Koroskin, el 23 de noviembre a las 14:26 me escribiste:
> On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 13:48:05 +0300, dolive <dolive89@sina.com> wrote:
> 
> >dolive дµ½:
> >
> >>thank's ddmd ! it¡¯s too great ! http://www.dsource.org/projects/ddmd
> >>
> >>
> >>dolive
> >
> >may I ask how many people work for it now ? thank's !
> >
> >dolive
> >
> 
> Just me.

I wonder how legal is this port. I'm not trying to start a flame, really, I'm curious. Did you get some kind of permission from Walter? If one would like to contribute, it would get some special permission too?

Thanks

-- 
Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca)                     http://llucax.com.ar/
----------------------------------------------------------------------
GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145  104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Vaporeso, al verse enfundado por la depresión, decide dar fin a su vida tomando Chinato Garda mezclado con kerosene al 50%. Ante el duro trance pierde la movilidad en sus miembros derechos: inferior y superior. En ese momento es considerado como el hombre líder del movimiento de izquierda de Occidente.

== Quote from Leandro Lucarella (llucax@gmail.com)'s article
> Denis Koroskin, el 23 de noviembre a las 14:26 me escribiste:
> > On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 13:48:05 +0300, dolive <dolive89@sina.com> wrote:
> >
> > >dolive дµ½:
> > >
> > >>thank's ddmd ! it¡¯s too great ! http://www.dsource.org/projects/ddmd
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>dolive
> > >
> > >may I ask how many people work for it now ? thank's !
> > >
> > >dolive
> > >
> >
> > Just me.
> I wonder how legal is this port. I'm not trying to start a flame, really,
> I'm curious. Did you get some kind of permission from Walter? If one would
> like to contribute, it would get some special permission too?
> Thanks

??????  The front end is GPL licensed and the back end isn't ported.  The GPL is practically an invitation to do stuff like this.  What am I missing.

On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 20:22:18 +0300, Leandro Lucarella <llucax@gmail.com> wrote:

> Denis Koroskin, el 23 de noviembre a las 14:26 me escribiste:
>> On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 13:48:05 +0300, dolive <dolive89@sina.com> wrote:
>>
>> >dolive дµ½:
>> >
>> >>thank's ddmd ! it¡¯s too great !
>> >>http://www.dsource.org/projects/ddmd
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>dolive
>> >
>> >may I ask how many people work for it now ? thank's !
>> >
>> >dolive
>> >
>>
>> Just me.
>
> I wonder how legal is this port. I'm not trying to start a flame, really,
> I'm curious. Did you get some kind of permission from Walter? If one would
> like to contribute, it would get some special permission too?
>
> Thanks
>

I don't see any license issues other than backend-related ones. I asked Walter about them and here is what he said:

> I think that if you simply provide an interface to the back end, with function and type declarations, that is an acceptable use. If you include actual code from the back end, you'll need to conform to its license.

Denis Koroskin, el 23 de noviembre a las 20:27 me escribiste:
> >I wonder how legal is this port. I'm not trying to start a flame, really,
> >I'm curious. Did you get some kind of permission from Walter? If
> >one would
> >like to contribute, it would get some special permission too?
> >
> >Thanks
> >
> 
> I don't see any license issues other than backend-related ones. I asked Walter about them and here is what he said:
> 
> >I think that if you simply provide an interface to the back end, with function and type declarations, that is an acceptable use. If you include actual code from the back end, you'll need to conform to its license.

Oh, I thought you were rewriting the backend in D too. So, you're just using the backend, not rewriting it or redistribuiting it?

-- 
Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca)                     http://llucax.com.ar/
----------------------------------------------------------------------
GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145  104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names

dsimcha, el 23 de noviembre a las 17:27 me escribiste:
> == Quote from Leandro Lucarella (llucax@gmail.com)'s article
> > Denis Koroskin, el 23 de noviembre a las 14:26 me escribiste:
> > > On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 13:48:05 +0300, dolive <dolive89@sina.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >dolive дµ½:
> > > >
> > > >>thank's ddmd ! it¡¯s too great ! http://www.dsource.org/projects/ddmd
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>dolive
> > > >
> > > >may I ask how many people work for it now ? thank's !
> > > >
> > > >dolive
> > > >
> > >
> > > Just me.
> > I wonder how legal is this port. I'm not trying to start a flame, really,
> > I'm curious. Did you get some kind of permission from Walter? If one would
> > like to contribute, it would get some special permission too?
> > Thanks
> 
> ??????  The front end is GPL licensed and the back end isn't ported.  The GPL is practically an invitation to do stuff like this.  What am I missing.

You missed that I missed that he didn't intended to rewrite the backend in D. I know what the GPL is. And no need to get nervous, I said I didn't wanted to start a flame, it was an honest and well intended question.

-- 
Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca)                     http://llucax.com.ar/
----------------------------------------------------------------------
GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145  104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Estoy de acuerdo en que el hombre es igual a los ojos de Dios..., pero
hay algunos que, siendo negros, hacen uso de lo que no les corresponde.
Eso Dios no lo ve.
	-- Ricardo Vaporeso. Manifestación en Mississippi a favor de
		los blancos, 1923.

Denis Koroskin wrote:
> Travis Boucher has shown his interest in contribution, but he currently
> has issues with D2 not working on FreeBSD. To quote him:
> 
>> I have dmd working, and druntime (which was a quick hack to make work, but should work well enough).  The problems I am having at the moment is with phobos,  mostly because I don't fully understand how phobos interacts with druntime (certain things seem to be duplicated between druntime and phobos).
> 
>> Once I figure out how all that works (which I'll want to do anyway for ddmd), I should have a working port of D2 for FreeBSD.
> 
> You can join the project, too, developing is not hard at all. No special knowledge is required since porting code is pretty much a straightforward process. Everyone who is interested is welcome. Contact me if you need help to get yourself started.

I have pretty much given up on D2 until it is finalized, and development focus changes from specifications to library & compiler implementation and enhancements.  I think this will be the best time (for me) to get involved in the process.

Unfortunately for me (and possibly others) I got into D at a really shitty time.  The language itself is in a state of flux (at least for D2).  So I am changing my own focus on application development with D1, which I am sure will be around for quite a while before D2 gets community acceptance.

On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 11:50 AM, Travis Boucher <boucher.travis@gmail.com> wrote:
> Denis Koroskin wrote:
>>
>> Travis Boucher has shown his interest in contribution, but he currently has issues with D2 not working on FreeBSD. To quote him:
>>
>>> I have dmd working, and druntime (which was a quick hack to make work,
>>> but should work well enough).  The problems I am having at the moment is
>>> with phobos,  mostly because I don't fully understand how phobos interacts
>>> with druntime (certain things seem to be duplicated between druntime and
>>> phobos).
>>
>>> Once I figure out how all that works (which I'll want to do anyway for ddmd), I should have a working port of D2 for FreeBSD.
>>
>> You can join the project, too, developing is not hard at all. No special knowledge is required since porting code is pretty much a straightforward process. Everyone who is interested is welcome. Contact me if you need help to get yourself started.
>
> I have pretty much given up on D2 until it is finalized, and development focus changes from specifications to library & compiler implementation and enhancements.  I think this will be the best time (for me) to get involved in the process.
>
> Unfortunately for me (and possibly others) I got into D at a really shitty time.  The language itself is in a state of flux (at least for D2).  So I am changing my own focus on application development with D1, which I am sure will be around for quite a while before D2 gets community acceptance.

Having been around here for a few years, I have to say you don't know what you're talking about.  Things are actually looking better for D than they have for years.  You may find that revelation more scary than inspiring but here's why I say so: End of D2 work is in sight. The reference compiler can be re-built by anyone from source now.  D sits atop a runtime which can be used by any library that wants to participate.  Both Walter and now Don are bug-fixin' machines.  QtD is usable (from what I understand).   All good stuff.

So yeh, if you get started writing an app in D2 now you may have to make some changes, but if you're only starting now, then you won't have much source code that needs changing to keep up.  TDPL is due out first half of next year, and there shouldn't be too many major changes to D2 after that.  Furthermore, if you start writing serious D2 code now, your input will have considerably more weight than someone who's only looking at it on paper.

But if you're really under tight deadline pressure or something, then probably D1 (or Python, or C#) would be a better choice.

--bb

Bill Baxter wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 11:50 AM, Travis Boucher
> <boucher.travis@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Denis Koroskin wrote:
>>> Travis Boucher has shown his interest in contribution, but he currently
>>> has issues with D2 not working on FreeBSD. To quote him:
>>>
>>>> I have dmd working, and druntime (which was a quick hack to make work,
>>>> but should work well enough).  The problems I am having at the moment is
>>>> with phobos,  mostly because I don't fully understand how phobos interacts
>>>> with druntime (certain things seem to be duplicated between druntime and
>>>> phobos).
>>>> Once I figure out how all that works (which I'll want to do anyway for
>>>> ddmd), I should have a working port of D2 for FreeBSD.
>>> You can join the project, too, developing is not hard at all. No special
>>> knowledge is required since porting code is pretty much a straightforward
>>> process. Everyone who is interested is welcome. Contact me if you need help
>>> to get yourself started.
>> I have pretty much given up on D2 until it is finalized, and development
>> focus changes from specifications to library & compiler implementation and
>> enhancements.  I think this will be the best time (for me) to get involved
>> in the process.
>>
>> Unfortunately for me (and possibly others) I got into D at a really shitty
>> time.  The language itself is in a state of flux (at least for D2).  So I am
>> changing my own focus on application development with D1, which I am sure
>> will be around for quite a while before D2 gets community acceptance.
> 
> Having been around here for a few years, I have to say you don't know
> what you're talking about.  Things are actually looking better for D
> than they have for years.  You may find that revelation more scary
> than inspiring but here's why I say so: End of D2 work is in sight.
> The reference compiler can be re-built by anyone from source now.  D
> sits atop a runtime which can be used by any library that wants to
> participate.  Both Walter and now Don are bug-fixin' machines.  QtD is
> usable (from what I understand).   All good stuff.
> 
> So yeh, if you get started writing an app in D2 now you may have to
> make some changes, but if you're only starting now, then you won't
> have much source code that needs changing to keep up.  TDPL is due out
> first half of next year, and there shouldn't be too many major changes
> to D2 after that.  Furthermore, if you start writing serious D2 code
> now, your input will have considerably more weight than someone who's
> only looking at it on paper.
> 
> But if you're really under tight deadline pressure or something, then
> probably D1 (or Python, or C#) would be a better choice.
> 
> --bb

I am new to the language, so I don't know what I am talking about in a larger context, I can only go by my first impressions.  If my first impressions are "this is a bad time to get into D2", you can only imagine the view of people who are use to shiny-polished-one-click-install toolchains.

The perception of newcomers to a language really say alot about the language.  If it is more work to setup a development environment for a language then it is to code in the language(s) it aims to replace, then the language is doomed to be an enthusiast language forever.

I am not saying this perception or the state of the language will stay as it is, I'm just trying to say that the language will not be taken seriously until things get organized properly and things get polished and shiny.  It seems that D is pretty much a one man show with a small following that chimes in when they have a chance.

What D needs is an organized group of people who share a common interest and have equal voice in steering the direction of the language.  It does not have that now, but I have high hopes this will change sometime in the near future.

Travis Boucher wrote:
> Bill Baxter wrote:
>> On Mon, Nov 23, 2009 at 11:50 AM, Travis Boucher
>> <boucher.travis@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Denis Koroskin wrote:
>>>> Travis Boucher has shown his interest in contribution, but he currently
>>>> has issues with D2 not working on FreeBSD. To quote him:
>>>>
>>>>> I have dmd working, and druntime (which was a quick hack to make work,
>>>>> but should work well enough).  The problems I am having at the moment is
>>>>> with phobos,  mostly because I don't fully understand how phobos interacts
>>>>> with druntime (certain things seem to be duplicated between druntime and
>>>>> phobos).
>>>>> Once I figure out how all that works (which I'll want to do anyway for
>>>>> ddmd), I should have a working port of D2 for FreeBSD.
>>>> You can join the project, too, developing is not hard at all. No special
>>>> knowledge is required since porting code is pretty much a straightforward
>>>> process. Everyone who is interested is welcome. Contact me if you need help
>>>> to get yourself started.
>>> I have pretty much given up on D2 until it is finalized, and development
>>> focus changes from specifications to library & compiler implementation and
>>> enhancements.  I think this will be the best time (for me) to get involved
>>> in the process.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately for me (and possibly others) I got into D at a really shitty
>>> time.  The language itself is in a state of flux (at least for D2).  So I am
>>> changing my own focus on application development with D1, which I am sure
>>> will be around for quite a while before D2 gets community acceptance.
>>
>> Having been around here for a few years, I have to say you don't know
>> what you're talking about.  Things are actually looking better for D
>> than they have for years.  You may find that revelation more scary
>> than inspiring but here's why I say so: End of D2 work is in sight.
>> The reference compiler can be re-built by anyone from source now.  D
>> sits atop a runtime which can be used by any library that wants to
>> participate.  Both Walter and now Don are bug-fixin' machines.  QtD is
>> usable (from what I understand).   All good stuff.
>>
>> So yeh, if you get started writing an app in D2 now you may have to
>> make some changes, but if you're only starting now, then you won't
>> have much source code that needs changing to keep up.  TDPL is due out
>> first half of next year, and there shouldn't be too many major changes
>> to D2 after that.  Furthermore, if you start writing serious D2 code
>> now, your input will have considerably more weight than someone who's
>> only looking at it on paper.
>>
>> But if you're really under tight deadline pressure or something, then
>> probably D1 (or Python, or C#) would be a better choice.
>>
>> --bb
> 
> I am new to the language, so I don't know what I am talking about in a larger context, I can only go by my first impressions.  If my first impressions are "this is a bad time to get into D2", you can only imagine the view of people who are use to shiny-polished-one-click-install toolchains.

I would say rather, "we are very close to the end of the bad time to get into D2". Right now we have a mad rush to finally fix all of the stuff which has been put off for years. It's expected that this phase will last for only a few more weeks in terms of the language (then the focus will switch to the library). The stuff which goes into Andrei's book will never change.

It's a really bad time to be porting a D2 compiler: for example, there are significant changes in the next release. But there may only be about three more releases before the mad rush ends.

> The perception of newcomers to a language really say alot about the language.  If it is more work to setup a development environment for a language then it is to code in the language(s) it aims to replace, then the language is doomed to be an enthusiast language forever.
> 
> I am not saying this perception or the state of the language will stay as it is, I'm just trying to say that the language will not be taken seriously until things get organized properly and things get polished and shiny.  

Yes. But when D2 comes out of beta at the end of the year, we'll have made a big step forward.

It seems that D is pretty much a one man show with a small
> following that chimes in when they have a chance.
> 
> What D needs is an organized group of people who share a common interest and have equal voice in steering the direction of the language.  It does not have that now, but I have high hopes this will change sometime in the near future.