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November 03, 2012
Re: D vs C++11
On Sat, 03 Nov 2012 07:46:17 -0500, Erèbe <erebe@erebe.eu> wrote:

>> To be fair though, asking "C++ vs D" on a D newsgroup is clearly going
>> to be tilted more towards the D end ;) But yea, personally, I feel that
>> C++11 is merely playing "catch up", and doing so on a broken leg.
>
> I didn't expect that much of response to my question, but it was my  
> intent to see the point of view of the community even if I know it is  
> biased.
>
>
> All of you name a lot of missing features in C++11, while I completely  
> agree upon that makes D cool, don't you fear a turtle effect if D only  
> focus on features ?
> I explain myself, C++ is a well supported language and come with a lot  
> of tools which could help/improve your developpement. In the decision of  
> taking D xor C++, developper could think "Hey I already know C++ and how  
> to work with it (aka tools), let just stick with it and wait for the new  
> C++11 features coming for free". In that situation, C++11's no effort  
> (or little to learn new additions) seem more rewarding than learning D,  
> so why try ?
>
> Is there a point in the D roadmap where we will see "Okay, D has enough  
> features, let add some support to the language now" ? Because in my  
> opinion D is for now just a language, a awesome one yes, but not yet a  
> good environnement for developper.
>
> C(++) had man (K in vim) and gdb, pascal his own ide, dynamic languages  
> have their interpreters, Java eclipse, what has D ?
>
> Nearly no support in vim (my editor of choice), a Plugin for eclipse  
> wich force you to stick with an older version, a Visual studio plugin  
> where you need to buy a liscence in order to have the IDE. The only  
> viable choice for me is the plugin for monodevelop which is really great  
> but no debugger (assert is enough for now).
>
> Support should not be a top priority for the D-core now that the  
> language is well featured ? Something coherent with what already exist  
> (dmd) ?

Nearly no support in Vim?  Are you joking?  What does Vim not support for  
D that you want it to?

-- 
Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
November 03, 2012
Re: D vs C++11
On Saturday, 3 November 2012 at 12:46:18 UTC, Erèbe wrote:

> Nearly no support in vim (my editor of choice), a Plugin for 
> eclipse wich force you to stick with an older version, a Visual 
> studio plugin where you need to buy a liscence in order to have 
> the IDE. The only viable choice for me is the plugin for 
> monodevelop which is really great but no debugger (assert is 
> enough for now).

Hi Erèbe,
you can use free Visual Studio Shell with VisualD..
http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=30670

Thanks,
Oleg.
November 03, 2012
Re: D vs C++11
On Saturday, 3 November 2012 at 12:56:36 UTC, mist wrote:
> http://codepad.org/s38L9tUr
>
> Am I misunderstanding something regarding C++ here?
>
> On Saturday, 3 November 2012 at 02:44:49 UTC, Mehrdad wrote:
>> On Saturday, 3 November 2012 at 02:27:21 UTC, mist wrote:
>>> Regarding delegates - I think deal is that none of this C++ 
>>> stuff can automatically capture local function context with 
>>> delegate, so there are no _real_ delegates.
>>
>>
>>
>> I don't understand what you mean...
>>
>> std::function<int(int)> make_adder(int a)
>> {
>> 	return [=](int b) { return a + b; };
>> }

You could use the following instead

auto f = [&](){ return x; };

but then you cannot return the lambda.

--
Paulo
November 03, 2012
Re: D vs C++11
Ye, that is exactly what I meant when said C++ has no real 
context capture and thus no real delegates here.

On Saturday, 3 November 2012 at 15:04:25 UTC, Paulo Pinto wrote:
> On Saturday, 3 November 2012 at 12:56:36 UTC, mist wrote:
>> http://codepad.org/s38L9tUr
>>
>> Am I misunderstanding something regarding C++ here?
>>
>> On Saturday, 3 November 2012 at 02:44:49 UTC, Mehrdad wrote:
>>> On Saturday, 3 November 2012 at 02:27:21 UTC, mist wrote:
>>>> Regarding delegates - I think deal is that none of this C++ 
>>>> stuff can automatically capture local function context with 
>>>> delegate, so there are no _real_ delegates.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I don't understand what you mean...
>>>
>>> std::function<int(int)> make_adder(int a)
>>> {
>>> 	return [=](int b) { return a + b; };
>>> }
>
> You could use the following instead
>
> auto f = [&](){ return x; };
>
> but then you cannot return the lambda.
>
> --
> Paulo
November 03, 2012
Re: D vs C++11
On Saturday, 3 November 2012 at 12:46:18 UTC, Erèbe wrote:
>> To be fair though, asking "C++ vs D" on a D newsgroup is 
>> clearly going
>> to be tilted more towards the D end ;) But yea, personally, I 
>> feel that
>> C++11 is merely playing "catch up", and doing so on a broken 
>> leg.
>
> I didn't expect that much of response to my question, but it 
> was my intent to see the point of view of the community even if 
> I know it is biased.
>
>
> All of you name a lot of missing features in C++11, while I 
> completely agree upon that makes D cool, don't you fear a 
> turtle effect if D only focus on features ?
> I explain myself, C++ is a well supported language and come 
> with a lot of tools which could help/improve your 
> developpement. In the decision of taking D xor C++, developper 
> could think "Hey I already know C++ and how to work with it 
> (aka tools), let just stick with it and wait for the new C++11 
> features coming for free". In that situation, C++11's no effort 
> (or little to learn new additions) seem more rewarding than 
> learning D, so why try ?
>
> Is there a point in the D roadmap where we will see "Okay, D 
> has enough features, let add some support to the language now" 
> ? Because in my opinion D is for now just a language, a awesome 
> one yes, but not yet a good environnement for developper.
>
> C(++) had man (K in vim) and gdb, pascal his own ide, dynamic 
> languages have their interpreters, Java eclipse, what has D ?
>
> Nearly no support in vim (my editor of choice), a Plugin for 
> eclipse wich force you to stick with an older version, a Visual 
> studio plugin where you need to buy a liscence in order to have 
> the IDE. The only viable choice for me is the plugin for 
> monodevelop which is really great but no debugger (assert is 
> enough for now).
>
> Support should not be a top priority for the D-core now that 
> the language is well featured ? Something coherent with what 
> already exist (dmd) ?


http://forum.dlang.org/thread/khmerwhgumluolifxtix@forum.dlang.org#post-khmerwhgumluolifxtix:40forum.dlang.org
November 03, 2012
Re: D vs C++11
On Sat, Nov 03, 2012 at 09:02:58AM -0500, 1100110 wrote:
> On Sat, 03 Nov 2012 07:46:17 -0500, Erèbe <erebe@erebe.eu> wrote:
[...]
> >Nearly no support in vim (my editor of choice), a Plugin for
> >eclipse wich force you to stick with an older version, a Visual
> >studio plugin where you need to buy a liscence in order to have
> >the IDE. The only viable choice for me is the plugin for
> >monodevelop which is really great but no debugger (assert is
> >enough for now).
[...]
> Nearly no support in Vim?  Are you joking?  What does Vim not
> support for D that you want it to?
[...]

Yeah I use vim too, and I don't see any problem. But then again, maybe
he's looking for syntax highlighting or that kind of stuff which I don't
use.

But still. Oleg has a point -- IDE support and other such things need to
be done by other people than the core developers, who need to focus on
honing the language.

I find it strange that every so often people clamor for IDE support,
syntax highlighting, debugger support, etc., yet nobody seems to be
willing to contribute actual code. Don't like something about the
current state of D development tools? Well then do something about it.
The source code is there for a reason, and it's not just to make people
feel all warm and fuzzy inside because now we can label ourselves "open
source".


T

-- 
Klein bottle for rent ... inquire within. -- Stephen Mulraney
November 03, 2012
Re: D vs C++11
On Sat, 03 Nov 2012 11:08:16 -0500, H. S. Teoh <hsteoh@quickfur.ath.cx>  
wrote:

> On Sat, Nov 03, 2012 at 09:02:58AM -0500, 1100110 wrote:
>> On Sat, 03 Nov 2012 07:46:17 -0500, Erèbe <erebe@erebe.eu> wrote:
> [...]
>> >Nearly no support in vim (my editor of choice), a Plugin for
>> >eclipse wich force you to stick with an older version, a Visual
>> >studio plugin where you need to buy a liscence in order to have
>> >the IDE. The only viable choice for me is the plugin for
>> >monodevelop which is really great but no debugger (assert is
>> >enough for now).
> [...]
>> Nearly no support in Vim?  Are you joking?  What does Vim not
>> support for D that you want it to?
> [...]
>
> Yeah I use vim too, and I don't see any problem. But then again, maybe
> he's looking for syntax highlighting or that kind of stuff which I don't
> use.
>
> But still. Oleg has a point -- IDE support and other such things need to
> be done by other people than the core developers, who need to focus on
> honing the language.
>
> I find it strange that every so often people clamor for IDE support,
> syntax highlighting, debugger support, etc., yet nobody seems to be
> willing to contribute actual code. Don't like something about the
> current state of D development tools? Well then do something about it.
> The source code is there for a reason, and it's not just to make people
> feel all warm and fuzzy inside because now we can label ourselves "open
> source".
>
>
> T
>

Check out D.Announce.  Even *more* support for D in vim.

I'm happy enough with my current setup, but I also want to play with this..
-- 
Wait.  Define 'within'.
November 03, 2012
Re: D vs C++11
Geany on Linux has good D support. It seems more like an editor 
than a true IDE, but it does have some project management 
features and ability to execute builds.

Codeblocks is a complete feature rich C++ cross platform IDE, it 
has some D support but it is incomplete last I checked.

--rt
November 03, 2012
Re: D vs C++11
On Sat, 03 Nov 2012 12:23:17 -0500, Rob T <rob@ucora.com> wrote:

> Geany on Linux has good D support. It seems more like an editor than a  
> true IDE, but it does have some project management features and ability  
> to execute builds.
>
> Codeblocks is a complete feature rich C++ cross platform IDE, it has  
> some D support but it is incomplete last I checked.
>
> --rt

I LOVE geany.  Especially with the built in terminal.
I bound ctr-alt to switch to the terminal and ctr-super to switch to the  
editor.

When I need to easily look through multiple files, geany is my goto.

I found that the Terminal was easier and far more hackable for builds than  
any built in execution..

But that's just me.  I think Geany's D Syntax highlighting could use a  
little work(But it does highlight aliases as types, which is awesome), but  
It's never been enough of an issue for me to actually fix it. (And I might  
simply be running an older release)  Also I think Geany's block insert and  
block highlighting is easier than Vim's.

I never really liked CodeBlocks, It seems like it has soo many things that  
I wouldn't use simply because the manual method is easier.  But it is  
important to mention, since I assume lots of people don't know about all  
of the IDE's that support D.
November 03, 2012
Re: D vs C++11
I'm not convinced D has caught up to C++ yet from a usability 
standpoint, as the tools are still quite bad(VisualD -not- fun).

 But the other day I tried out MonoD and it shows promise, auto 
completion is solid, and it seems to have at least some of the 
features I've come to expect from using Visual C++ with Visual 
Assist. Its still behind though, perhaps in another year?

 Ideally VisualD would support the completion/reflection stuff 
MonoD has, and that would be a pretty awesome package that I 
think would attract many more developers.
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