On Wednesday, November 09, 2011 18:38:48 Walter Bright wrote:
> On 11/9/2011 5:13 PM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
> > On Wednesday, November 09, 2011 16:58 bearophile wrote:
> >> Is the (just) Windows compiled version present in the DMD zip? I don't
> >> remember what was the decision on this (I'd like it to be present).
> > 
> > Currently, no version of libcurl is included in the zip file. I don't believe that there has been any decision on what to do about it. But if we do end up including it, then that's one more reason to consider splitting up the zip file by OS.
> 
> I don't want us to get caught in the rat race of "the version that comes with the compiler is out of date". libcurl has its own development cycle, and dmd should not be slaved to that.

Yeah. That's one reason why I'm not a fan of the idea of distributing it with dmd. So, it won't hurt my feelings any if it never gets put into the zip file. However, we're going to have to make it clear in the documentation on how to get your hands on an appropriate libcurl library (especially since any version of it that you're likely to find online would be in the wrong library format).

- Jonathan M Davis

Windows is generally a place where people expect to not have to go and install other external packages for things like this, but rather have it bundled with the installer (zip in this case). Whereas on Linux, you could just use your package manager to install the libraries, for Windows, you'd have to actually find the website, find the library, possibly compile it (difficult on Windows), implib/coffimplib it (something which has little to no documentation and is very hard for new people to figure out, and something I had a LOT of problems with trying to figure out originally; it doesn't even come with DMD), and finally link it and hope for the best. It would be MUCH better and simpler to just include it in the zip for Windows.

On 09/11/2011 6:58 PM, bearophile wrote:
> Walter:
>
>> Thank you so much for doing this. I think it's a nice piece of work.
>
> I agree.
> As they say, easy things should be easy and hard things should be possible.
>
>
>> * libcurl should be a link to where people can read up on what it is.
>> I suggest http://curl.haxx.se/libcurl
>> Point out that the user will need libcurl installed on their system in order to
>> use etc.curl.
>
> Is the (just) Windows compiled version present in the DMD zip? I don't remember what was the decision on this (I'd like it to be present).
>
> Bye,
> bearophile

On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 9:31 PM, Kapps <Kapps@notvalidemail.com> wrote:

> Windows is generally a place where people expect to not have to go and install other external packages for things like this, but rather have it bundled with the installer (zip in this case). Whereas on Linux, you could just use your package manager to install the libraries, for Windows, you'd have to actually find the website, find the library, possibly compile it (difficult on Windows), implib/coffimplib it (something which has little to no documentation and is very hard for new people to figure out, and something I had a LOT of problems with trying to figure out originally; it doesn't even come with DMD), and finally link it and hope for the best. It would be MUCH better and simpler to just include it in the zip for Windows.
>
>
I agree.  Python's "batteries included" style approach is a huge boon.  The number of users who would need a different version than the one included pales in comparison to the productivity gains of including it.  People who need a different version can just replace it themselves.  We could also just make the installer give the user a choice of installing it or not.


>
>
On 09/11/2011 6:58 PM, bearophile wrote:
>
>> Walter:
>>
>>  Thank you so much for doing this. I think it's a nice piece of work.
>>>
>>
>> I agree.
>> As they say, easy things should be easy and hard things should be
>> possible.
>>
>>
>>  * libcurl should be a link to where people can read up on what it is.
>>> I suggest http://curl.haxx.se/libcurl
>>> Point out that the user will need libcurl installed on their system in
>>> order to
>>> use etc.curl.
>>>
>>
>> Is the (just) Windows compiled version present in the DMD zip? I don't
>> remember what was the decision on this (I'd like it to be present).
>>
>> Bye,
>> bearophile
>>
>
>

2011/11/9 Brad Anderson <eco@gnuk.net>

> On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 9:31 PM, Kapps <Kapps@notvalidemail.com> wrote:
>
>> Windows is generally a place where people expect to not have to go and install other external packages for things like this, but rather have it bundled with the installer (zip in this case). Whereas on Linux, you could just use your package manager to install the libraries, for Windows, you'd have to actually find the website, find the library, possibly compile it (difficult on Windows), implib/coffimplib it (something which has little to no documentation and is very hard for new people to figure out, and something I had a LOT of problems with trying to figure out originally; it doesn't even come with DMD), and finally link it and hope for the best. It would be MUCH better and simpler to just include it in the zip for Windows.
>>
>>
> I agree.  Python's "batteries included" style approach is a huge boon.
>  The number of users who would need a different version than the one
> included pales in comparison to the productivity gains of including it.
>  People who need a different version can just replace it themselves.  We
> could also just make the installer give the user a choice of installing it
> or not.
>
>
>>
>>
>  On 09/11/2011 6:58 PM, bearophile wrote:
>>
>>> Walter:
>>>
>>>  Thank you so much for doing this. I think it's a nice piece of work.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I agree.
>>> As they say, easy things should be easy and hard things should be
>>> possible.
>>>
>>>
>>>  * libcurl should be a link to where people can read up on what it is.
>>>> I suggest http://curl.haxx.se/libcurl
>>>> Point out that the user will need libcurl installed on their system in
>>>> order to
>>>> use etc.curl.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Is the (just) Windows compiled version present in the DMD zip? I don't
>>> remember what was the decision on this (I'd like it to be present).
>>>
>>> Bye,
>>> bearophile
>>>
>>
>>
>
I agree, on Windows it would be best to have a competent installer that does this.

On 2011-11-09 21:53, Jonas Drewsen wrote:
> Hi,
>
> So after the last review of the etc.curl there were some requests for
> making it simpler.
>
> After some thinking, refactoring and documentation I've come up with a
> somewhat changed API.
>
> Before sending it for official review again I would really like some
> comments on the new API and if you think it is better or worse etc.
>
> http://freeze.steamwinter.com/D/web/phobos/etc_curl.html
>
> Thanks,
> Jonas

I like the new high level API, that's how easy it should be to download a file or get the content of a webpage.

What is the actual Phobos guideline in naming things that are keywords in D. I'm thinking about Method.del, shouldn't it be Method.delete_ or something similar, don't know what the guidelines say in this case. BTW, I would really like to have more official guidelines somewhere at the dpl page.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg

On 2011-11-09 21:53, Jonas Drewsen wrote:
> Hi,
>
> So after the last review of the etc.curl there were some requests for
> making it simpler.
>
> After some thinking, refactoring and documentation I've come up with a
> somewhat changed API.
>
> Before sending it for official review again I would really like some
> comments on the new API and if you think it is better or worse etc.
>
> http://freeze.steamwinter.com/D/web/phobos/etc_curl.html
>
> Thanks,
> Jonas

BTW, why is this "etc.culr" and not "std.curl".

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg

On Thursday, November 10, 2011 08:27:53 Jacob Carlborg wrote:
> What is the actual Phobos guideline in naming things that are keywords in D. I'm thinking about Method.del, shouldn't it be Method.delete_ or something similar, don't know what the guidelines say in this case. BTW, I would really like to have more official guidelines somewhere at the dpl page.

Thus far, we've taken the approach of tacking an underscore on the end (so delete would be delete_), but we haven't made any kind of official decision on it. However, if it's reasonable to use a different word entirely, then that's generally better. It's stuff like std.traits.FunctionAttribute which pretty much _has_ to match the keyword where we've appended the underscore (e.g. pure_ and nothrow_).

- Jonathan M Davis

On 2011-11-10 03:57, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
> On 11/9/11 6:24 PM, Walter Bright wrote:
>> I tend to like references to things in other modules to be hyperlinks.
>> For example, writeln should be $(LINK2
>> http://www.d-programming-language.org/phobos/std_stdio.html#writeln,
>> writeln)
>
> That should be XREF actually.
>
> Andrei

I would be nice to have some documentation of these macros that are used through out Phobos.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg

On 2011-11-10 04:39, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 09, 2011 18:38:48 Walter Bright wrote:
>> On 11/9/2011 5:13 PM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, November 09, 2011 16:58 bearophile wrote:
>>>> Is the (just) Windows compiled version present in the DMD zip? I don't
>>>> remember what was the decision on this (I'd like it to be present).
>>>
>>> Currently, no version of libcurl is included in the zip file. I don't
>>> believe that there has been any decision on what to do about it. But if
>>> we do end up including it, then that's one more reason to consider
>>> splitting up the zip file by OS.
>>
>> I don't want us to get caught in the rat race of "the version that comes
>> with the compiler is out of date". libcurl has its own development cycle,
>> and dmd should not be slaved to that.
>
> Yeah. That's one reason why I'm not a fan of the idea of distributing it with
> dmd. So, it won't hurt my feelings any if it never gets put into the zip file.
> However, we're going to have to make it clear in the documentation on how to
> get your hands on an appropriate libcurl library (especially since any version
> of it that you're likely to find online would be in the wrong library format).
>
> - Jonathan M Davis

What about distributing it from the dpl page but not in the dmd zip?

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg

On 2011-11-10 09:50, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
> On Thursday, November 10, 2011 08:27:53 Jacob Carlborg wrote:
>> What is the actual Phobos guideline in naming things that are keywords
>> in D. I'm thinking about Method.del, shouldn't it be Method.delete_ or
>> something similar, don't know what the guidelines say in this case. BTW,
>> I would really like to have more official guidelines somewhere at the
>> dpl page.
>
> Thus far, we've taken the approach of tacking an underscore on the end (so
> delete would be delete_), but we haven't made any kind of official decision on
> it. However, if it's reasonable to use a different word entirely, then that's
> generally better. It's stuff like std.traits.FunctionAttribute which pretty
> much _has_ to match the keyword where we've appended the underscore (e.g.
> pure_ and nothrow_).
>
> - Jonathan M Davis

I agree, but this case it's not a completely different word, it's a shorting of the word.

I just like that there should be something more official when these things pop up.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg