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November 01, 2012
Re: A little Py Vs C++
On 11/1/2012 2:20 PM, bearophile wrote:
> Some complexity comes from the
> desire to do more and more. As example see this recent request from Manu,

What about all your feature requests? I think you've made more than anyone, by a 
factor of 10 at least!

:-)

As for Manu's request

http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=8108

I've gone over with him why he needs it, and there's no other reasonable way. He 
needs it for real code in a real application.
November 01, 2012
Re: A little Py Vs C++
On Thursday, 1 November 2012 at 20:10:47 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:
> But yeah, the current documentation needs work. Unfortunately, 
> wishing
> for it to happen won't make it happen, so if you contribute 
> (use the
> "improve this page" link) that would be great

I never noticed that link before. When I click on it, I go to 
github showing me a webpage with "404" on it. The text over link 
says I need a github account and to submit pull requests. I'm not 
sure how I'm supposed to make changes with that.

I know about the regular Wiki and have made a contribution there, 
that's very simple to do.

--rt
November 02, 2012
Re: A little Py Vs C++
On Thursday, 1 November 2012 at 23:56:00 UTC, Rob T wrote:
> On Thursday, 1 November 2012 at 20:10:47 UTC, H. S. Teoh wrote:
>> But yeah, the current documentation needs work. Unfortunately, 
>> wishing
>> for it to happen won't make it happen, so if you contribute 
>> (use the
>> "improve this page" link) that would be great
>
> I never noticed that link before. When I click on it, I go to 
> github showing me a webpage with "404" on it. The text over 
> link says I need a github account and to submit pull requests. 
> I'm not sure how I'm supposed to make changes with that.
>
> I know about the regular Wiki and have made a contribution 
> there, that's very simple to do.
>
> --rt

All the documentation is written in DDoc. The website is hosted 
on github. Github provides an online text editor usable against 
your repository. Your repository is created as a fork of the 
original. Github uses pull requests to move changes upstream.

It isn't as simple as a wiki but it isn't too bad. Hope that is 
enough information to get started.
November 02, 2012
Re: A little Py Vs C++
On 2012-11-01 23:51, Walter Bright wrote:

> What about all your feature requests? I think you've made more than
> anyone, by a factor of 10 at least!
>
> :-)
>
> As for Manu's request
>
> http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=8108
>
> I've gone over with him why he needs it, and there's no other reasonable
> way. He needs it for real code in a real application.

This is quite interesting. Manu comes in from basically nowhere and 
fairly quickly manage to convince Walter to implement at least two 
feature requests, this one and the SIMD support. I'm not saying that 
they shouldn't have been implemented. Although I think something like 
AST macros could possible solve issue 8108 and a whole bunch of other 
features, a few already present in the language.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
November 02, 2012
Re: A little Py Vs C++
On 02/11/12 09:07, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
> On 2012-11-01 23:51, Walter Bright wrote:
>
>> What about all your feature requests? I think you've made more than
>> anyone, by a factor of 10 at least!
>>
>> :-)
>>
>> As for Manu's request
>>
>> http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=8108
>>
>> I've gone over with him why he needs it, and there's no other reasonable
>> way. He needs it for real code in a real application.
>
> This is quite interesting. Manu comes in from basically nowhere and
> fairly quickly manage to convince Walter to implement at least two
> feature requests, this one and the SIMD support. I'm not saying that
> they shouldn't have been implemented.

He just knows how to convince Walter.
(Hint: use real-world use cases. Arguments from theoretical computer 
science carry almost no weight with Walter).

> Although I think something like
> AST macros could possible solve issue 8108 and a whole bunch of other
> features, a few already present in the language.

Yes, and they could cure cancer. "AST macros" can do anything, because 
they are completely undefined. Without even a vague proposal, it seems 
like a rather meaningless term.
November 02, 2012
Re: A little Py Vs C++
Jacob Carlborg wrote:
> On 2012-11-01 23:51, Walter Bright wrote:
> 
> >What about all your feature requests? I think you've made more than
> >anyone, by a factor of 10 at least!
> >
> >:-)
> >
> >As for Manu's request
> >
> >http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=8108
> >
> >I've gone over with him why he needs it, and there's no other reasonable
> >way. He needs it for real code in a real application.
> 
> This is quite interesting. Manu comes in from basically nowhere and
> fairly quickly manage to convince Walter to implement at least two
> feature requests, this one and the SIMD support. I'm not saying that
> they shouldn't have been implemented. Although I think something
> like AST macros could possible solve issue 8108 and a whole bunch of
> other features, a few already present in the language.

I had the same thought when reading this. Very disappointing. An issue
with zero votes is fixed instead of more important ones. Why do I vote
anyway?
Regarding SIMD I have the feeling that because it is built into the
compiler static vectors have actually failed what they promised. I
thought D proposed a portable way of vector operations such that you
write
float[4] = a[] + b[]
and the compiler generates SIMD code for you.

Jens
November 02, 2012
Re: A little Py Vs C++
Don Clugston wrote:
> On 02/11/12 09:07, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
> >On 2012-11-01 23:51, Walter Bright wrote:
> >
> >>What about all your feature requests? I think you've made more than
> >>anyone, by a factor of 10 at least!
> >>
> >>:-)
> >>
> >>As for Manu's request
> >>
> >>http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=8108
> >>
> >>I've gone over with him why he needs it, and there's no other reasonable
> >>way. He needs it for real code in a real application.
> >
> >This is quite interesting. Manu comes in from basically nowhere and
> >fairly quickly manage to convince Walter to implement at least two
> >feature requests, this one and the SIMD support. I'm not saying that
> >they shouldn't have been implemented.
> 
> He just knows how to convince Walter.
> (Hint: use real-world use cases. Arguments from theoretical computer
> science carry almost no weight with Walter).

I think there are lots of issues in the bug tracker which describe real
use cases. The point is that these are more like bugs whereas Manu's
proposals are more like feature requests.

Jens
November 02, 2012
Re: A little Py Vs C++
On 02/11/12 10:12, Jens Mueller wrote:
> Don Clugston wrote:
>> On 02/11/12 09:07, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
>>> On 2012-11-01 23:51, Walter Bright wrote:
>>>
>>>> What about all your feature requests? I think you've made more than
>>>> anyone, by a factor of 10 at least!
>>>>
>>>> :-)
>>>>
>>>> As for Manu's request
>>>>
>>>> http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=8108
>>>>
>>>> I've gone over with him why he needs it, and there's no other reasonable
>>>> way. He needs it for real code in a real application.
>>>
>>> This is quite interesting. Manu comes in from basically nowhere and
>>> fairly quickly manage to convince Walter to implement at least two
>>> feature requests, this one and the SIMD support. I'm not saying that
>>> they shouldn't have been implemented.
>>
>> He just knows how to convince Walter.
>> (Hint: use real-world use cases. Arguments from theoretical computer
>> science carry almost no weight with Walter).
>
> I think there are lots of issues in the bug tracker which describe real
> use cases. The point is that these are more like bugs whereas Manu's
> proposals are more like feature requests.
>
> Jens

The SIMD stuff has no workarounds. I don't know of many other feature 
requests in that category.
November 02, 2012
Re: A little Py Vs C++
On 02/11/12 10:01, Jens Mueller wrote:
> Jacob Carlborg wrote:
>> On 2012-11-01 23:51, Walter Bright wrote:
>>
>>> What about all your feature requests? I think you've made more than
>>> anyone, by a factor of 10 at least!
>>>
>>> :-)
>>>
>>> As for Manu's request
>>>
>>> http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=8108
>>>
>>> I've gone over with him why he needs it, and there's no other reasonable
>>> way. He needs it for real code in a real application.
>>
>> This is quite interesting. Manu comes in from basically nowhere and
>> fairly quickly manage to convince Walter to implement at least two
>> feature requests, this one and the SIMD support. I'm not saying that
>> they shouldn't have been implemented. Although I think something
>> like AST macros could possible solve issue 8108 and a whole bunch of
>> other features, a few already present in the language.
>
> I had the same thought when reading this. Very disappointing. An issue
> with zero votes is fixed instead of more important ones. Why do I vote
> anyway?
> Regarding SIMD I have the feeling that because it is built into the
> compiler static vectors have actually failed what they promised. I
> thought D proposed a portable way of vector operations such that you
> write
> float[4] = a[] + b[]
> and the compiler generates SIMD code for you.

Not for short vectors. They are more like the builtin operations in 
Fortran, ie designed for large vectors. More for scientific kinds of 
applications than games. (The two applications look superficially 
similar, but in practice they have little in common).
November 02, 2012
Re: A little Py Vs C++
Don Clugston wrote:
> On 02/11/12 10:12, Jens Mueller wrote:
> >Don Clugston wrote:
> >>On 02/11/12 09:07, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
> >>>On 2012-11-01 23:51, Walter Bright wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>What about all your feature requests? I think you've made more than
> >>>>anyone, by a factor of 10 at least!
> >>>>
> >>>>:-)
> >>>>
> >>>>As for Manu's request
> >>>>
> >>>>http://d.puremagic.com/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=8108
> >>>>
> >>>>I've gone over with him why he needs it, and there's no other reasonable
> >>>>way. He needs it for real code in a real application.
> >>>
> >>>This is quite interesting. Manu comes in from basically nowhere and
> >>>fairly quickly manage to convince Walter to implement at least two
> >>>feature requests, this one and the SIMD support. I'm not saying that
> >>>they shouldn't have been implemented.
> >>
> >>He just knows how to convince Walter.
> >>(Hint: use real-world use cases. Arguments from theoretical computer
> >>science carry almost no weight with Walter).
> >
> >I think there are lots of issues in the bug tracker which describe real
> >use cases. The point is that these are more like bugs whereas Manu's
> >proposals are more like feature requests.
> >
> >Jens
> 
> The SIMD stuff has no workarounds. I don't know of many other
> feature requests in that category.

Then I have a serious misunderstanding.
I thought D introduced array operations to allow the compiler to
generate efficient vector operations (in the long run), i.e. generate
SIMD code. Why is this not working out?

Jens
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