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January 10, 2012
Re: Discussion about D at a C++ forum
Alexander Malakhov:

> Other languages have just 1 date. I think wikipedia's editors 
> would resist if D will be different.

A solution is to have two Wikipedia pages, una for D1 and one for D.

Bye,
bearophile
January 10, 2012
Re: Discussion about D at a C++ forum
On 01/10/2012 08:47 AM, Alexander Malakhov wrote:
> On Tuesday, 10 January 2012 at 00:04:31 UTC, Sean Kelly wrote:
>> On Jan 9, 2012, at 3:45 PM, Iain Buclaw wrote:
>>
>>> On 9 January 2012 21:29, Walter Bright <newshound2@digitalmars.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> On 1/9/2012 11:45 AM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please fix the wikipedia entry!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> With what? Make it say 2003 for D1 and 2007 for D2?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, but 2001 for D1.
>>>
>>> [citation needed]
>>
>> How about the changelog? Or does it have to be an actual article.
>> Maybe Walter's written something at DDJ?
>
> D1 changelog starts with 1.001, 2007-01-23

D 0.00 was released on 9 December 2001.

http://www.digitalmars.com/d/1.0/changelog1.html#new000

-- 
Mike Wey
January 12, 2012
Re: Discussion about D at a C++ forum
On Tuesday, 10 January 2012 at 18:58:41 UTC, Mike Wey wrote:
> On 01/10/2012 08:47 AM, Alexander Malakhov wrote:
>> D1 changelog starts with 1.001, 2007-01-23
>
> D 0.00 was released on 9 December 2001.
>
> http://www.digitalmars.com/d/1.0/changelog1.html#new000

Oh, missed that links. Thanks!
January 12, 2012
Re: Discussion about D at a C++ forum
On Tuesday, 10 January 2012 at 12:08:41 UTC, bearophile wrote:
> Alexander Malakhov:
>
>> Other languages have just 1 date. I think wikipedia's editors 
>> would resist if D will be different.
>
> A solution is to have two Wikipedia pages, una for D1 and one 
> for D.
>
> Bye,
> bearophile

I believe that would be much more difficult.
Actually, I can't imagine how anyone could convince wikipedians 
to do this.

And even if that will happen, D1 page most likely will be deleted 
later due to little visits count
January 12, 2012
Re: Discussion about D at a C++ forum
Alexander Malakhov Wrote:

> And even if that will happen, D1 page most likely will be deleted 
> later due to little visits count

They are actually deleting pages due to low visit counts? This is just wrong.
January 12, 2012
Re: Discussion about D at a C++ forum
On Thursday, 12 January 2012 at 06:17:43 UTC, a wrote:
> Alexander Malakhov Wrote:
>
>> And even if that will happen, D1 page most likely will be 
>> deleted later due to little visits count
>
> They are actually deleting pages due to low visit counts? This 
> is just wrong.

Turns out I was wrong. I was thinking about Nemerle, which was 
delete in 2011 (but now is undeleted). Actually, it was deleted 
due to low notability,
which could be the case for D1, btw.

If interested, here is Nemerle story:

1. deletion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Nemerle

2. undeletion (click "show" at right)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2011_February_14

3. on reddit
http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/fkt7t/nemerle_factor_alice_ml_and_other_programming/

4. on Hacker News
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2215168
January 13, 2012
Re: Discussion about D at a C++ forum
Le 08/01/2012 08:47, Mike Parker a écrit :
> On 1/8/2012 3:57 PM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
>> On Saturday, January 07, 2012 22:19:53 Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>>> Here's an interesting discussion that may reflect the perceptions and
>>> misperceptions about D within the larger community.
>>>
>>> http://www.cplusplus.com/forum/lounge/58832/
>>
>> Not exactly the most informed discussion. But I would expect that some
>> of the
>> misinformation is fairly typical. I'd say that a lot of what people
>> think or
>> know about D is from a couple of years ago (if not farther back) and/or
>> derived from the opinions of others rather than real experience. And an
>> initial bad experience (as has happened far too often, as we've seen with
>> newbies reactions to stuff not working just around here, let alone in
>> the D
>> community as a whole) can definitely lead to negative and/or misinformed
>> beliefs, which then spread to others outside the D comunity when D is
>> brought
>> up.
>>
>> I'm not sure what we can do about that other than really improving
>> what we
>> have to offer, and while we still have plenty to do, we've definitely
>> been
>> making solid improvements.
>>
>> - Jonathan M Davis
> 
> Unfortunately, there's nothing anyone really can do about it (and I'm
> not actually directing this post at you, Jonathan, just preaching in
> general). Java, for example, *still* suffers from the reputation it
> gained back in the late 90's. You have companies like Sony running
> successful online games with both the client and the server developed in
> Java, while around the net people are swearing up and down that it's too
> slow for games. There are issues with Java, sure, but modern JVM
> performance is perfectly acceptable (and then some) for a significant
> number of use cases.
> 

It hasn't prevented Java from being extremely successful in its own area.
January 13, 2012
Re: Discussion about D at a C++ forum
On Monday, 9 January 2012 at 21:29:27 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
> On 1/9/2012 11:45 AM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
>>> Please fix the wikipedia entry!
>>
>> With what? Make it say 2003 for D1 and 2007 for D2?
>
> Yes, but 2001 for D1.

Walter, I suppose you will have to clearly state that somewhere 
in D documentation (A "history" page perhaps?), so people can 
modify the wikipedia page and use above-mentioned page as a 
reference, otherwise the change is going to be ignored.
January 13, 2012
Re: Discussion about D at a C++ forum
On 1/13/2012 7:57 AM, Dejan Lekic wrote:
> On Monday, 9 January 2012 at 21:29:27 UTC, Walter Bright wrote:
>> On 1/9/2012 11:45 AM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
>>>> Please fix the wikipedia entry!
>>>
>>> With what? Make it say 2003 for D1 and 2007 for D2?
>>
>> Yes, but 2001 for D1.
>
> Walter, I suppose you will have to clearly state that somewhere in D
> documentation (A "history" page perhaps?), so people can modify the wikipedia
> page and use above-mentioned page as a reference, otherwise the change is going
> to be ignored.

http://www.digitalmars.com/d/1.0/changelog1.html#new000
January 13, 2012
Re: Discussion about D at a C++ forum
"Mike Parker" <aldacron@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:jebhmg$20vf$1@digitalmars.com...
> On 1/8/2012 3:57 PM, Jonathan M Davis wrote:
>> On Saturday, January 07, 2012 22:19:53 Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
>>> Here's an interesting discussion that may reflect the perceptions and
>>> misperceptions about D within the larger community.
>>>
>>> http://www.cplusplus.com/forum/lounge/58832/
>>
>> Not exactly the most informed discussion. But I would expect that some of 
>> the
>> misinformation is fairly typical. I'd say that a lot of what people think 
>> or
>> know about D is from a couple of years ago (if not farther back) and/or
>> derived from the opinions of others rather than real experience. And an
>> initial bad experience (as has happened far too often, as we've seen with
>> newbies reactions to stuff not working just around here, let alone in the 
>> D
>> community as a whole) can definitely lead to negative and/or misinformed
>> beliefs, which then spread to others outside the D comunity when D is 
>> brought
>> up.
>>
>> I'm not sure what we can do about that other than really improving what 
>> we
>> have to offer, and while we still have plenty to do, we've definitely 
>> been
>> making solid improvements.
>>
>> - Jonathan M Davis
>
> Unfortunately, there's nothing anyone really can do about it (and I'm not 
> actually directing this post at you, Jonathan, just preaching in general). 
> Java, for example, *still* suffers from the reputation it gained back in 
> the late 90's. You have companies like Sony running successful online 
> games with both the client and the server developed in Java, while around 
> the net people are swearing up and down that it's too slow for games. 
> There are issues with Java, sure, but modern JVM performance is perfectly 
> acceptable (and then some) for a significant number of use cases.
>

While that's certainly a real phonomenon, in the case of Java, I think 
there's much more involved than just that: With Java, there's actual 
*reinforcement* of the "Java is slow" (regardless of whether right or 
wrong), and there are also other reasons for not wanting to give Java 
another chance regardless of it's speed. Consider this:

People start hearing "Java's fast now!". The subset of non-Java-users who 
*haven't* already become fed up with Java's OO-religiousness and other 
issues might actually give Java another chance. When most people think "Java 
development", they think "Eclipse". So they grab Eclipse, fire it up, 
and..."holy hell, this is still slow! WTF are people talking about? Java's 
not fast now!" And then they'll leave with a reinforced belief that Java is 
still slow and Java fans are nuts. Note that in this scenerio, whether or 
not Eclipse is an accurate representation of Java's speed is irrelevent.

I think the take-away is this: While we certainly should keep moving 
forward, improving things, correcting misconceptions of D when possible, and 
accepting that there will always people with outdated ideas of D, we should 
also keep an eye out for ways in which we might be accidentally reinforcing 
misconceptions (whether right or wrong), *especially* to those people who 
actually give us a try.

And I do think it also helps that the language we have is just simply much 
better than Java anyway (less likely for people to be fed up with the 
langauge and leave in disgust in the first place - language shortcomings are 
known to be harder to fix than tool shortcomings).
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