January 26, 2012
On 1/26/12 10:41 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Jan 2012 10:20:38 -0500, David Nadlinger <see@klickverbot.at>
> wrote:
>
>> On 1/26/12 4:06 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
>>> […]And the
>>> backspace key is labeled delete, and I still don't know how to do what a
>>> normal delete key would do (delete the character that follows the
>>> cursor) can someone tell me?
>>
>> Fn + Backspace, on my Macbook Pro.
>
> Thank you :) I will try it next time I use my macbook pro. And I forgot
> about that Fn key! Though that's pretty much standard on most laptops
> these days.
>
> -Steve

Awesome tip, had no idea. Thanks David!

Andrei
January 26, 2012
My only gripe about the trackpad is that it's impossible to drag with the right button down. Beyond that, I actually like the control key setup on OSX, even if it isn't as comprehensive as Windows. The command key has a long history in the Unix world anyway. It's much better than the Windows key that just does one thing, and something I've never actually wanted to do.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 26, 2012, at 7:06 AM, "Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 25 Jan 2012 17:16:19 -0500, Nick Sabalausky <a@a.a> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> But how is just the basic "moving the pointer" compared to other touchpads?
> 
> It's similar.  The only thing is, the click is actually a physical button (the whole pad is a button).  On a normal touchpad, you can click by tapping.  It doesn't work that way on the macbook (although you can enable it).  It has the right feel IMO, so it doesn't require too much strength to drag and drop for instance (push pad down, then drag finger, then release).
> 
>> That's the only problem I ever had with them (Well, that and accidentally "clicking" with my palm while trying to type).
> 
> This can't happen unless you push the pad down with your palm.  And yes, that annoys me too on normal touchpads, you just get used to not touching the pad.
> 
>> The physical buttons always
>> worked fine for me, I've never been much a fan of gestures anyway.
> 
> These aren't your standard gestures.  All the gestures use multiple fingers, so the activation of gestures depends on how many fingers you put down.  One finger *always* signifies moving the pointer.  There are no "hot zones" or accidental clicking.  It feels quite natural, and even though it's not quite intuitive (there is no intuitive way to map number of fingers to something), you get used to it pretty quick.  The scrolling is awesome.  Just lay your next finger down, and instantly you are scrolling.  I frequently find myself trying to do it on my other laptop only to be disappointed :)  To me, that is proof to myself that I like it...
> 
> If you can bring yourself to stomach the apple store atmosphere, I encourage you to visit one and try it out.  It's definitely different than any other interface I've ever used.
> 
> I do have a gripe about the mac system, however: the whole special key shit.  Control, Shift and Alt should be enough.  Why do we have option, and that funky clover key?  Not to mention that on every other system in the world, ctrl-c is copy ctrl-v is paste.  On apple it's that key formerly known as prince that does everything (and it's not in the same spot as normal control is either).  I have to look at the keyboard every time I want to do something like that.
> 
> As a bonus, they've left off the home, end, page up, and page down keys.  Instead you use (yep, you guessed it) flower-key + arrow keys.  And the backspace key is labeled delete, and I still don't know how to do what a normal delete key would do (delete the character that follows the cursor) can someone tell me?
> 
> -Steve
January 26, 2012
On 26.01.2012 00:36, Walter Bright wrote:
> On 1/25/2012 2:27 PM, Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
>> How about these?
>>
>> http://images.google.com/search?q=download&tbm=isch&tbs=isz:i
>
> You're in a maze of twisty passages, all different.

The first ones look as though they're showing you where the secret button on the hard disk is.

> download
You have walked into the slavering fangs of a lurking grue!
January 26, 2012
"Steven Schveighoffer" <schveiguy@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:op.v8o5k6h4eav7ka@localhost.localdomain...
>
> If you can bring yourself to stomach the apple store atmosphere,

Heh :)

> I  encourage you to visit one and try it out.  It's definitely different than  any other interface I've ever used.
>

Maybe I will. (Although, there's a MicroCenter right around here and they have a nice atmosphere and an Apple section...Although then I'll have to keep shooing the vulture know-nothing salesmen away...)

Last time I gave something a try at the apple store it was apple's version of a scroll mouse (the thing that "improves" on their infamous "one-button mouse" by having *no* buttons). By far worst mouse I've ever used. I know a guy that says he loves it, though I can't imagine why.

> I do have a gripe about the mac system, however: the whole special key shit.  Control, Shift and Alt should be enough.  Why do we have option, and that funky clover key?

Unless things have changed, it works like this (I'm actually looking at my Mac keyboard right here): "Option" *is* the "Alt" key (although the OS might treat it differently, can't remember). And the weird squiggly key is the "Apple" key (which is kind of a holdover from Apple 2 days when there was "Open Apple" and "Closed Apple", but no Control or Alt.)

The Apple key is treated like the control key - You just have to remember that when you'd normally go for Control, on the Mac you'd do Apple instead. I don't remember what the hell the Mac's "Control" key is for. My Option key actually says "Alt" in addition to "Option" (no function key involved b/c this isn't a laptop), so...I think it behaves the same IIRC...?

Of course, FWIW, Windows does have the "Windows" key and the "Menu" key.

> Not to mention that on every other system in  the world, ctrl-c is copy ctrl-v is paste.

Except for damn near every text-mode editor I've ever seen on Linux :/ (Note, that's "text-MODE editor", not just "text editor").

>
> As a bonus, they've left off the home, end, page up, and page down keys.

Ouch. That would absolutely kill me. That's definitely got to be a laptop-ism though. My Mac keyboard has all of those, and in the right places. Hmm, although it has a "Help" where "Insert" should be. Weird. Guess I never noticed because the only time I ever use overwrite mode is on accident.

It does have F13-F15 where PrintScrn, Scroll Lock, and Pause/Break normally are. The last two make sense to change, as I never use them. I do use Print Screen though. I do remember that OSX's keyboard combo to take a screenshot is rather unintuitive as a result.

> Instead you use (yep, you guessed it) flower-key + arrow keys.  And the backspace key is labeled delete, and I still don't know how to do what a normal delete key would do (delete the character that follows the cursor) can someone tell me?
>

My Mac keyboard has the normal "Del" delete button (which also has a right-pointing arrow that has an 'x' inside it)...Although it *also* has a backspace button labeled "Delete"...So there's two "Delete" keys that each behave different. That's strange. Even more strange that I don't remember noticing it, but then it *has* been awhile. Guess I just forgot.

I do agree though, keyboards on a Mac take some getting used to if you've been a Windows or Unix guy. And laptop keyboards can be a real pain in general.


January 26, 2012
"Sean Kelly" <sean@invisibleduck.org> wrote in message news:mailman.49.1327595627.25230.digitalmars-d@puremagic.com...
>The command key has a long
>history in the Unix world anyway. It's much better than
>the Windows key that just does one thing, and something
>I've never actually wanted to do.
>
>Sent from my iPhone

I do Win-R all the time. Win-D is nice, too, although I tend to forget about it.

-------------------------------
Not sent from an iPhone.


January 26, 2012
On Thu, 26 Jan 2012 17:31:34 -0500, Nick Sabalausky <a@a.a> wrote:

> "Sean Kelly" <sean@invisibleduck.org> wrote in message
> news:mailman.49.1327595627.25230.digitalmars-d@puremagic.com...
>> The command key has a long
>> history in the Unix world anyway. It's much better than
>> the Windows key that just does one thing, and something
>> I've never actually wanted to do.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>
> I do Win-R all the time. Win-D is nice, too, although I tend to forget about
> it.

Win-L is lock screen or "return to welcome screen" if you have that enabled.  That's a useful one.

-Steve
January 27, 2012
On Jan 26, 2012, at 2:28 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
> 
> The Apple key is treated like the control key - You just have to remember that when you'd normally go for Control, on the Mac you'd do Apple instead. I don't remember what the hell the Mac's "Control" key is for. My Option key actually says "Alt" in addition to "Option" (no function key involved b/c this isn't a laptop), so...I think it behaves the same IIRC…?

"control" click on OSX is effectively right-click.  Outside of the console, that's about the only use for it, as far as I know.
January 27, 2012
On 26/01/2012 15:41, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Jan 2012 10:20:38 -0500, David Nadlinger <see@klickverbot.at> wrote:
>
>> On 1/26/12 4:06 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote:
>>> […]And the
>>> backspace key is labeled delete, and I still don't know how to do what a
>>> normal delete key would do (delete the character that follows the
>>> cursor) can someone tell me?

Who decides what constitutes a "normal delete key"?  Back in the days of 8-bit home computers (Spectrum, BBC, C64 et al), delete tended to mean delete to the left.  Then there was the Amstrad PCW line, with "DEL→" and "←DEL" next to each other.  Since then it's become more or less standard that delete means delete to the right, delete to the left being called backspace.

(Though even on systems with both these keys, it's taken time to standardise their meanings.  I grew up partly with a primitive text editor called RPED, in which delete deleted to the left, and backspace (IIRC) just moved the cursor left.)

>> Fn + Backspace, on my Macbook Pro.
>
> Thank you :) I will try it next time I use my macbook pro. And I forgot about that Fn key!
> Though that's pretty much standard on most laptops these days.

I've been reminded of the iMac G3 that I was made to use for some of my time as a PhD student.  Just the backspace key, no delete key.  And no Fn key to make some of the keys double as different keys - those keys they felt people could live without they just left off.

Stewart.
January 27, 2012
"Sean Kelly" <sean@invisibleduck.org> wrote in message news:mailman.70.1327626159.25230.digitalmars-d@puremagic.com...
>On Jan 26, 2012, at 2:28 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
>>
>> The Apple key is treated like the control key - You just have to remember
>> that when you'd normally go for Control, on the Mac you'd do Apple
>> instead.
>> I don't remember what the hell the Mac's "Control" key is for. My Option
>> key
>> actually says "Alt" in addition to "Option" (no function key involved b/c
>> this isn't a laptop), so...I think it behaves the same IIRC…?
>
>"control" click on OSX is effectively right-click.  Outside of the console, that's about the only use for it, as far as I know.=

Heh, yea. That's something thing I always found funny: Apple always used to prepackage one-button mice with their right-click-capable OSX machines because "one-button mice are simpler and easier". But I never understood how "control-click" qualified as simpler or easier than "right-click".

Even *my mom* isn't confused by existence of the right-button of her mouse, and she's the type of user who doesn't even know what a "web browser" is, *and* she doesn't even comprehend "double-click" (She calls it "two clicks" and doesn't know when to use "one click or two" - hell, she usually just double-clicks on almost everything). Even *she* isn't confused by second mouse button or the scroll wheel. And neither is my dad, and he's even *worse* than she is (as just one small example, he couldn't understand that he could use his *laptop* without it being plugged in. "It's a portable, dad, it has a battery. That's the whole point." Explaining it still didn't seem to help.)


January 27, 2012
On 27/01/2012 01:36, Nick Sabalausky wrote:
<snip>
> Heh, yea. That's something thing I always found funny: Apple always used to
> prepackage one-button mice with their right-click-capable OSX machines
> because "one-button mice are simpler and easier". But I never understood how
> "control-click" qualified as simpler or easier than "right-click".
<snip>

A one-button mouse _is_ simpler than a mouse with three buttons and a scroll wheel.

OTOH, _using_ a one-button mouse is neither simpler nor easier....

(The IT manager of my uni department back in the day told me (probably speculatively) that the reason for fewer buttons is "less to go wrong".)

Stewart.