I have to say that I am very disappointed regarding the feedback I got from from my "wxWidgets good news" message.

Here is a historical chance to enhance D's spectrum in a way that has been pipe-dream just a few month ago and the community feedback is : ) we are busy with optimizing bla bla. well..

Gregor Richards (some will remember) has written BCDGen. BCDGen takes GCCXML output to generated D bindings from C++.
GCCXML is stalled, and far away from being perfect.


But now that even PHP guys are able to create full blown wxWidgets bindings based on Doxygen XML Output ..I have to say that is a pity that we are not able to do the same.

Whats.necessary to use D in order to create C++ bindings ?
1) Let's give up to create a reasonable XML library in D. Instead I would like to suggest that we wrap libxml2. (pure C) Finally this is like using the curl lib. And in order to prarse the XML output we have necessary XPATH support.

2) Let's re-use Gregor's BCDGen, based on a Doxygen's XML output,instead of GCCXML.

3) Let's create a visual tool (a minimalitic IDE), string templates, etc. which enable us to create fine tuned D code.

This is indeed NOT  a weekend job. But keep in mind that every C++ library  which is doxygen wise commented, is available for automated D2 binding generation.
Isn't that more important than ...
My2cents
Bjoern

> Whats.necessary to use D in order to create C++ bindings ?

github.com/jacob-carlborg/dstep

On 01/25/2012 09:07 AM, Trass3r wrote:
>> Whats.necessary to use D in order to create C++ bindings ?
>
> github.com/jacob-carlborg/dstep

Quote "
DStep is a tool for converting C and Objective-C headers to D modules.
"
Well THAT'S nitty gritty :)

C++ as well ? How ? And maybe the most imp[ortant point when ?

Don't get me wrong Jacob. In case that dstep is working perfect for C++ hallelujah.

(I am nevertheless convinced that porting from XML output has several advantages. Multi pass code generation.

Bjoern
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Slightly Off Topic  DWT (Keinfarbton) f.i. was born on a idea of mine. Frank and I have discussed the idea of using Java2XML (ANTLR based) to generate D code )

On 01/25/2012 11:41 AM, bls wrote:
> On 01/25/2012 09:07 AM, Trass3r wrote:
>>> Whats.necessary to use D in order to create C++ bindings ?
>>
>> github.com/jacob-carlborg/dstep
>
> Quote "
> DStep is a tool for converting C and Objective-C headers to D modules.
> "
> Well THAT'S nitty gritty :)
>
> C++ as well ? How ? And maybe the most imp[ortant point when ?
>
> Don't get me wrong Jacob. In case that dstep is working perfect for C++
> hallelujah.
>
> (I am nevertheless convinced that porting from XML output has several
> advantages. Multi pass code generation.
>
> Bjoern
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Slightly Off Topic DWT (Keinfarbton) f.i. was born on a idea of mine.
> Frank and I have discussed the idea of using Java2XML (ANTLR based) to
> generate D code )

I'm going to be rather straight forward on my opinion and, possibly, my ignorance. I think C (or any language with no symbol mangling) is an ideal language to create a library which is usable globally in almost any language. I think C++ libraries are an ideal language to create a library which is going to be used only within the C++ community because of it's ill symbol mangling system. There is no "right" way to work with C++ in D and although there are ways to interface with C++, I do not think that is the ideal situation.

That being said, libraries like wxWidgets are very large and have been acquired over several years of hardwork by a very large group. I do not think that a GUI toolkit library should have to bother with networking, sound, and so on. Also given the "standard" library D has, I think the GUI library D can provide should use Phobos extensively rather than its own mechanisms.

I think the ideal situation is to have a native D library. Creating binds to a C++ library is only a temporary solution and is not ideal both in implementation and in usage.

I do not mind using a C library in D because of how straight forward it is. But simply mentioning C++ in D seems to add unneeded complexity which should be avoided. I think the answer to a question such as "What's the alternative to Qt in D?" should not be "Qt bindings" but maybe a library which imitates the implementation and/or interface of Qt UI widgets in native D.

Another problem this causes is the seemingly unneccessary time needed to develop such libraries. I kinda regret saying this but using a C library in an OOP wrapper can be optimal and easy to work with. Perhaps adding to GTK+ as a C library for functionality that we want would be more ideal than trying to mess with C++.

I personally think the SIMD feature is much more important than trying to mess with C++.

On 01/25/2012 10:01 AM, Zachary Lund wrote:
> On 01/25/2012 11:41 AM, bls wrote:
>> On 01/25/2012 09:07 AM, Trass3r wrote:
>>>> Whats.necessary to use D in order to create C++ bindings ?
>>>
>>> github.com/jacob-carlborg/dstep
>>
>> Quote "
>> DStep is a tool for converting C and Objective-C headers to D modules.
>> "
>> Well THAT'S nitty gritty :)
>>
>> C++ as well ? How ? And maybe the most imp[ortant point when ?
>>
>> Don't get me wrong Jacob. In case that dstep is working perfect for C++
>> hallelujah.
>>
>> (I am nevertheless convinced that porting from XML output has several
>> advantages. Multi pass code generation.
>>
>> Bjoern
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Slightly Off Topic DWT (Keinfarbton) f.i. was born on a idea of mine.
>> Frank and I have discussed the idea of using Java2XML (ANTLR based) to
>> generate D code )
>
> I'm going to be rather straight forward on my opinion and, possibly, my
> ignorance. I think C (or any language with no symbol mangling) is an
> ideal language to create a library which is usable globally in almost
> any language. I think C++ libraries are an ideal language to create a
> library which is going to be used only within the C++ community because
> of it's ill symbol mangling system. There is no "right" way to work with
> C++ in D and although there are ways to interface with C++, I do not
> think that is the ideal situation.
>
> That being said, libraries like wxWidgets are very large and have been
> acquired over several years of hardwork by a very large group. I do not
> think that a GUI toolkit library should have to bother with networking,
> sound, and so on. Also given the "standard" library D has, I think the
> GUI library D can provide should use Phobos extensively rather than its
> own mechanisms.
>
> I think the ideal situation is to have a native D library. Creating
> binds to a C++ library is only a temporary solution and is not ideal
> both in implementation and in usage.
>
> I do not mind using a C library in D because of how straight forward it
> is. But simply mentioning C++ in D seems to add unneeded complexity
> which should be avoided. I think the answer to a question such as
> "What's the alternative to Qt in D?" should not be "Qt bindings" but
> maybe a library which imitates the implementation and/or interface of Qt
> UI widgets in native D.
>
> Another problem this causes is the seemingly unneccessary time needed to
> develop such libraries. I kinda regret saying this but using a C library
> in an OOP wrapper can be optimal and easy to work with. Perhaps adding
> to GTK+ as a C library for functionality that we want would be more
> ideal than trying to mess with C++.
>
> I personally think the SIMD feature is much more important than trying
> to mess with C++.

Thanks for the  feedback.
well, I think we have very different views.

Unfortunately I am not a student anymore instead I am a unhappy tax payer.
To fulfill my Job I need GUI,RIA(WEB), Database and XML(SOAP) support. To say the least.  So pretty much everything D is not able to deliver atm. We are buying 3 party add ons in a few kilo bucks region and unfortunately we have to work with a Tool chain which is far away from being perfect.
In other words the D language is already offering more than we need,could be an option,  but the library situation is a disaster.

wxWidgets. Do you really care about wrapped vs native library ?
Do you think that the D community will ever be able to create a wxWidgets comparable native D lib. while not being able to spend some time in creating a binding generator ? I would be glad to have such bindings !

My 2 cents.

On Wed, 25 Jan 2012 10:44:43 -0800
bls <bizprac@orange.fr> wrote:

> Unfortunately I am not a student anymore instead I am a unhappy tax payer.

Same here.

> To fulfill my Job I need GUI,RIA(WEB), Database and XML(SOAP)
> support.

I need GUI & Database support, but not for the job, but for a kind-of
hobby (open-source) project.

> In other words the D language is already offering more than we need,could be an option,  but the library situation is a disaster.

/mer nods

> wxWidgets. Do you really care about wrapped vs native library ?

I don't.

> Do you think that the D community will ever be able to create a wxWidgets comparable native D lib. while not being able to spend some time in creating a binding generator ? i

Not soon.

> I would be glad to have such bindings !

After researching a lot, I believe that wxWidgets is the best solution for multi-platform development and I'll try to help as much as possible those people trying to make it happen.


Sinvcerely,
Gour

-- 
A self-realized man has no purpose to fulfill in the discharge of his prescribed duties, nor has he any reason not to perform such work. Nor has he any need to depend on any other living being.

http://atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810

On 2012-01-25 18:41, bls wrote:
> On 01/25/2012 09:07 AM, Trass3r wrote:
>>> Whats.necessary to use D in order to create C++ bindings ?
>>
>> github.com/jacob-carlborg/dstep
>
> Quote "
> DStep is a tool for converting C and Objective-C headers to D modules.
> "
> Well THAT'S nitty gritty :)
>
> C++ as well ? How ? And maybe the most imp[ortant point when ?

I had no plans on supporting C++ but we'll see what happens. I don't know when. I have much of the implementation already done but that was as a modification to Clang, not as a separate tool. I'm trying to reimplement the code as a separate tool in D using the Clang C bindings. So far it's not working out that well, there's not much documentation available.

> Don't get me wrong Jacob. In case that dstep is working perfect for C++
> hallelujah.
>
> (I am nevertheless convinced that porting from XML output has several
> advantages. Multi pass code generation.
>
> Bjoern
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Slightly Off Topic DWT (Keinfarbton) f.i. was born on a idea of mine.
> Frank and I have discussed the idea of using Java2XML (ANTLR based) to
> generate D code )


-- 
/Jacob Carlborg

On 2012-01-25 20:13, Jacob Carlborg wrote:
> On 2012-01-25 18:41, bls wrote:
>> On 01/25/2012 09:07 AM, Trass3r wrote:
>>>> Whats.necessary to use D in order to create C++ bindings ?
>>>
>>> github.com/jacob-carlborg/dstep
>>
>> Quote "
>> DStep is a tool for converting C and Objective-C headers to D modules.
>> "
>> Well THAT'S nitty gritty :)
>>
>> C++ as well ? How ? And maybe the most imp[ortant point when ?
>
> I had no plans on supporting C++ but we'll see what happens. I don't
> know when. I have much of the implementation already done but that was
> as a modification to Clang, not as a separate tool. I'm trying to
> reimplement the code as a separate tool in D using the Clang C bindings.
> So far it's not working out that well, there's not much documentation
> available.

BTW, this is what I've got so far, in a somewhat useable state:

https://github.com/jacob-carlborg/clang

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg

On 01/25/2012 11:06 AM, Gour wrote:
> After researching a lot, I believe that wxWidgets is the best solution
> for multi-platform development and I'll try to help as much as possible
> those people trying to make it happen.
>
>
> Sinvcerely,
> Gour
>
Hi Gour thanks for the feedback,
Indeed.
wxWidgets in 2.9.3  has closed the gap to QT. (webkit, f.i.) The documentation is also very close to what QT has to  offer thanks to Doxygen. We should not forget that wxWidget is offering support for the RibboBar. (not that I like it too much)

I wonder how much sense it would make to port the PHP parser/codegenerator source (wxPHP) into python. At least it should result in : More readable code, xml instead of shitty json intermediate output for the D codegerator.
Despite that , developing a GUI tool to browse/modify the xml files is a piece of cake in wxPython.

Of couse I would be nice to use D. But the XML files are simply to big to do DOM parsing. XPATH is required.
Last thing. BCDGEN is using libxml2 to generate D code. and BCDGen was the tool to created the libxml2 wrapper. Eat your own Dog food. Good!

http://dsource.org/projects/bcd

Bjoern

On Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:26:34 -0800
bls <bizprac@orange.fr> wrote:

> wxWidgets in 2.9.3  has closed the gap to QT. (webkit, f.i.) The documentation is also very close to what QT has to  offer thanks to Doxygen.

Let's hope 3.0 will polish it even further.

> I wonder how much sense it would make to port the PHP parser/codegenerator source (wxPHP) into python.

You mean instead of porting to D (work done by Andrej)?

> At least it should result in : More readable code, xml instead of shitty json intermediate output for the D codegerator.

For what would you use XML output?

> Of couse I would be nice to use D. But the XML files are simply to big to do DOM parsing. XPATH is required.

I believe that our needs for DOM/XPATH parsing are not so big. :-)

> Last thing. BCDGEN is using libxml2 to generate D code. and BCDGen was the tool to created the libxml2 wrapper. Eat your own Dog food.

Whatever tool can be made to help bind wx would be great...and considering there are some bindings for Sqlite3 (which, anyway, shoould not be too hard), we'd be satisfied to plunge into D project. :-)

Finally, I hope that those of us interested to see active wxD project
will be be smart-enough working together to overcome NiH
syndrome. ;)


Sincerely,
Gour


-- 
Whatever action a great man performs, common men follow. And whatever standards he sets by exemplary acts, all the world pursues.

http://atmarama.net | Hlapicina (Croatia) | GPG: 52B5C810