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February 09, 2012
Re: Mac OS X 10.5 support
On 2/9/2012 1:37 AM, Sönke Ludwig wrote:
> I have a project that we actually plan to use in production in the company for
> which I work. They still require 10.5 support for their products so removing
> that support would make for a very bad situation here.
>
> But it should be possible to get a 10.5 retail DVD and install it inside a VM..
> I actually planned to do exactly this to support 10.5 nightbuilds for my own D
> stuff.
>
> If support should be dropped anyway, are the issues only build-related so that
> e.g. gdc would still continue work on 10.5 without further work?


Would it also be possible for you to:

1. debug what has gone wrong with the 10.5 support? I'll be happy to fold in any 
resulting patches.

2. provide a remote login shell so we can figure it out?

3. use git bisect to determine which change broke it?
February 09, 2012
Re: Mac OS X 10.5 support
You need 10.5 server. Apple doesn't allow desktop versions of OSX in a VM (I think 10.7 may be the first exception to this rule) and VM makers honor this. I may be able to sort out earlier OSX server versions somewhere for my own use, but I don't have the resources to make them accessible to others.  I'll see about trying this today. 

On Feb 9, 2012, at 1:37 AM, Sönke Ludwig <ludwig@informatik.uni-luebeck.de> wrote:

> Am 09.02.2012 04:52, schrieb Walter Bright:
>> Lately, dmd seems to have broken support for OS X 10.5. Supporting that
>> system is problematic for us, since we don't have 10.5 systems available
>> for dev/test.
>> 
>> Currently, the build/test farm is OS X 10.7.
>> 
>> I don't think this is like the Windows issue. Upgrading Windows is (for
>> me, anyway) a full day job. Upgrading OS X is inexpensive and relatively
>> painless, the least painless of any system newer than DOS that I've
>> experienced.
>> 
>> Hence, is it worthwhile to continue support for 10.5? Can we officially
>> say that only 10.6+ is supported? Is there a significant 10.5 community
>> that eschews OS upgrades but still expects new apps?
> 
> I have a project that we actually plan to use in production in the company for which I work. They still require 10.5 support for their products so removing that support would make for a very bad situation here.
> 
> But it should be possible to get a 10.5 retail DVD and install it inside a VM.. I actually planned to do exactly this to support 10.5 nightbuilds for my own D stuff.
> 
> If support should be dropped anyway, are the issues only build-related so that e.g. gdc would still continue work on 10.5 without further work?
February 09, 2012
Re: Mac OS X 10.5 support
On 2012-02-09 17:21, Sean Kelly wrote:
> You need 10.5 server. Apple doesn't allow desktop versions of OSX in a VM (I think 10.7 may be the first exception to this rule) and VM makers honor this. I may be able to sort out earlier OSX server versions somewhere for my own use, but I don't have the resources to make them accessible to others.  I'll see about trying this today.

VMware made a mistake with VMware Fusion 4.1 that allows to virtualize 
Leopard and Snow Leopard.

http://www.macworld.com/article/163755/2011/11/vmware_fusion_update_lets_users_virtualize_leopard_snow_leopard.html

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
February 09, 2012
Re: Mac OS X 10.5 support
Am 09.02.2012 17:20, schrieb Walter Bright:
> On 2/9/2012 1:37 AM, Sönke Ludwig wrote:
>> I have a project that we actually plan to use in production in the
>> company for
>> which I work. They still require 10.5 support for their products so
>> removing
>> that support would make for a very bad situation here.
>>
>> But it should be possible to get a 10.5 retail DVD and install it
>> inside a VM..
>> I actually planned to do exactly this to support 10.5 nightbuilds for
>> my own D
>> stuff.
>>
>> If support should be dropped anyway, are the issues only build-related
>> so that
>> e.g. gdc would still continue work on 10.5 without further work?
>
>
> Would it also be possible for you to:
>
> 1. debug what has gone wrong with the 10.5 support? I'll be happy to
> fold in any resulting patches.
>
> 2. provide a remote login shell so we can figure it out?
>
> 3. use git bisect to determine which change broke it?

I will try and see if a regular retail version of 10.5 can somehow be 
run in a VM, I will possibly get one tomorrow. Otherwise I'll try to get 
a 10.5 test machine on monday and see what I can do.
February 10, 2012
Re: Mac OS X 10.5 support
On 2012-02-09 21:12, Sönke Ludwig wrote:
> Am 09.02.2012 17:20, schrieb Walter Bright:
>> On 2/9/2012 1:37 AM, Sönke Ludwig wrote:
>>> I have a project that we actually plan to use in production in the
>>> company for
>>> which I work. They still require 10.5 support for their products so
>>> removing
>>> that support would make for a very bad situation here.
>>>
>>> But it should be possible to get a 10.5 retail DVD and install it
>>> inside a VM..
>>> I actually planned to do exactly this to support 10.5 nightbuilds for
>>> my own D
>>> stuff.
>>>
>>> If support should be dropped anyway, are the issues only build-related
>>> so that
>>> e.g. gdc would still continue work on 10.5 without further work?
>>
>>
>> Would it also be possible for you to:
>>
>> 1. debug what has gone wrong with the 10.5 support? I'll be happy to
>> fold in any resulting patches.
>>
>> 2. provide a remote login shell so we can figure it out?
>>
>> 3. use git bisect to determine which change broke it?
>
> I will try and see if a regular retail version of 10.5 can somehow be
> run in a VM, I will possibly get one tomorrow. Otherwise I'll try to get
> a 10.5 test machine on monday and see what I can do.

It's quite easy to run Mac OS X on a PC, natively or virtually. Just 
google around.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
February 10, 2012
Re: Mac OS X 10.5 support
On 9 February 2012 09:37, Sönke Ludwig <ludwig@informatik.uni-luebeck.de> wrote:
> Am 09.02.2012 04:52, schrieb Walter Bright:
>
>> Lately, dmd seems to have broken support for OS X 10.5. Supporting that
>> system is problematic for us, since we don't have 10.5 systems available
>> for dev/test.
>>
>> Currently, the build/test farm is OS X 10.7.
>>
>> I don't think this is like the Windows issue. Upgrading Windows is (for
>> me, anyway) a full day job. Upgrading OS X is inexpensive and relatively
>> painless, the least painless of any system newer than DOS that I've
>> experienced.
>>
>> Hence, is it worthwhile to continue support for 10.5? Can we officially
>> say that only 10.6+ is supported? Is there a significant 10.5 community
>> that eschews OS upgrades but still expects new apps?
>
>
> I have a project that we actually plan to use in production in the company
> for which I work. They still require 10.5 support for their products so
> removing that support would make for a very bad situation here.
>
> But it should be possible to get a 10.5 retail DVD and install it inside a
> VM.. I actually planned to do exactly this to support 10.5 nightbuilds for
> my own D stuff.
>
> If support should be dropped anyway, are the issues only build-related so
> that e.g. gdc would still continue work on 10.5 without further work?

Maybe... someone needs to test it though (apple-gcc won't work anymore
as that has been dropped, but gcc should still be available through
macports, or so I'm told).

-- 
Iain Buclaw

*(p < e ? p++ : p) = (c & 0x0f) + '0';
February 11, 2012
Re: Mac OS X 10.5 support
On 09.02.2012 17:07, Sean Kelly wrote:
> At this point, the only people on 10.4-5 should be those with PPC macs. I think 32-bit Intel owners may be stuck on 10.6.

The link that Brad posted shows there are Intel users on 10.4 and 10.5. 
The number of 10.4, 10.5 users is about four times higher than the 
number of PPC macs.
Is 10.6 still available? I would imagine that anybody who didn't upgrade 
early on, probably never will now.


>> "Walter Bright"<newshound2@digitalmars.com>  wrote in message
>> news:jgvfu2$gmk$1@digitalmars.com...
>>> Lately, dmd seems to have broken support for OS X 10.5. Supporting that
>>> system is problematic for us, since we don't have 10.5 systems available
>>> for dev/test.
>>>
>>> Currently, the build/test farm is OS X 10.7.
>>>
>>> I don't think this is like the Windows issue. Upgrading Windows is (for
>>> me, anyway) a full day job. Upgrading OS X is inexpensive and relatively
>>> painless, the least painless of any system newer than DOS that I've
>>> experienced.
>>>
>>> Hence, is it worthwhile to continue support for 10.5? Can we officially
>>> say that only 10.6+ is supported? Is there a significant 10.5 community
>>> that eschews OS upgrades but still expects new apps?
February 11, 2012
Re: Mac OS X 10.5 support
On 2012-02-11 09:18, Don wrote:
> On 09.02.2012 17:07, Sean Kelly wrote:
>> At this point, the only people on 10.4-5 should be those with PPC
>> macs. I think 32-bit Intel owners may be stuck on 10.6.
>
> The link that Brad posted shows there are Intel users on 10.4 and 10.5.
> The number of 10.4, 10.5 users is about four times higher than the
> number of PPC macs.
> Is 10.6 still available? I would imagine that anybody who didn't upgrade
> early on, probably never will now.

I'm still at 10.6 and I will upgrade to 10.7, I'm just lazy.

-- 
/Jacob Carlborg
February 11, 2012
Re: Mac OS X 10.5 support
That's a good question. Not being able to get upgrade pricing because the intermediate versions aren't available would be a problem, though I believe paying the upgrade vs. non-upgrade price may use the honor system anyway. You're right though, if someone hasn't upgraded yet then they. Ever will. 

On Feb 11, 2012, at 12:18 AM, Don <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:

> On 09.02.2012 17:07, Sean Kelly wrote:
>> At this point, the only people on 10.4-5 should be those with PPC macs. I think 32-bit Intel owners may be stuck on 10.6.
> 
> The link that Brad posted shows there are Intel users on 10.4 and 10.5. The number of 10.4, 10.5 users is about four times higher than the number of PPC macs.
> Is 10.6 still available? I would imagine that anybody who didn't upgrade early on, probably never will now.
> 
> 
>>> "Walter Bright"<newshound2@digitalmars.com>  wrote in message
>>> news:jgvfu2$gmk$1@digitalmars.com...
>>>> Lately, dmd seems to have broken support for OS X 10.5. Supporting that
>>>> system is problematic for us, since we don't have 10.5 systems available
>>>> for dev/test.
>>>> 
>>>> Currently, the build/test farm is OS X 10.7.
>>>> 
>>>> I don't think this is like the Windows issue. Upgrading Windows is (for
>>>> me, anyway) a full day job. Upgrading OS X is inexpensive and relatively
>>>> painless, the least painless of any system newer than DOS that I've
>>>> experienced.
>>>> 
>>>> Hence, is it worthwhile to continue support for 10.5? Can we officially
>>>> say that only 10.6+ is supported? Is there a significant 10.5 community
>>>> that eschews OS upgrades but still expects new apps?
>
February 13, 2012
Re: Mac OS X 10.5 support
Am 09.02.2012 17:20, schrieb Walter Bright:
> On 2/9/2012 1:37 AM, Sönke Ludwig wrote:
>> I have a project that we actually plan to use in production in the
>> company for
>> which I work. They still require 10.5 support for their products so
>> removing
>> that support would make for a very bad situation here.
>>
>> But it should be possible to get a 10.5 retail DVD and install it
>> inside a VM..
>> I actually planned to do exactly this to support 10.5 nightbuilds for
>> my own D
>> stuff.
>>
>> If support should be dropped anyway, are the issues only build-related
>> so that
>> e.g. gdc would still continue work on 10.5 without further work?
> 
> 
> Would it also be possible for you to:
> 
> 1. debug what has gone wrong with the 10.5 support? I'll be happy to
> fold in any resulting patches.
> 
> 2. provide a remote login shell so we can figure it out?
> 
> 3. use git bisect to determine which change broke it?

I was able to test on a Mac Mini with 10.5 today (setting up a virtual
machine did not work without downloading disk images over torrent or
similar stuff and v4.1.1 of vmware fusion does not allow non-server
installations anymore). My findings were:

- stock DMD did not run because it is compiled for 64-bit while the
system is 32-bit only
- compiling on a 10.6 machine with stock DMD caused a fatal dyld error
at application startup on the 10.5 machine (for a simple hello world app)
- compiling a fresh DMD on the 10.5 machine from git seems to yield
working executables

So either the problem is just a build setup issue or it was something I
didn't test (I tested writefln() as in bug 4854). Is there a standard
way to build the DMD+druntime+phobos package so I can simulate the
original build process? Right now I just compiled each of those
separately using "make posix.mk" without any further options.

Minor note: the version check in dmd/source/posix.mk to select the OS X
SDK does not work on 10.5 and it selects the 10.6 SDK.
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